I really can't get over the structure of this game. Having such a large Mississippi straddle in this game keeps people away from pots and makes stacks very short which is bad for everyone. Being good at Plo is a really massive advantage if you have the roll to take the swings as Plo seems to have the biggest whales and most pro nl players only have a vague concept of pre flop hand selection and how to 3 bet among other things. As for this spot I'd try to put more money in on flop and as played pot control and boat up the river.

call is fine now, with his nose wide open he probably never folds a flush to any raise but your hand looks credibly like a flush to him, he won't **** with you on blank rivers, he might even check some smaller flushes otr

As a very out of practice PLO player I would have raised the flop, both to get more money in case Tilty has a real hand like two pair or bottom set, and we may get a lot of money in, but also because I have the A blocker so if a diamond comes it should slow him down.

When a turn diamond does come you can bet representing the nuts - he will probably usually call with some flushes but maybe not all. And if the river pairs you can value bet (if he doesn't bet it himself) and if the board does not pair you may be able to bluff him off at least some flushes.

As played I would not raise the turn - if he has a flush he won't be that scared you have the nut flush since you did not raise the flop (which he no doubt would have with that draw in hero's position).

If the river is a blank I would not try to represent the nuts, I don't think he'd likely buy it.

I've tried to rationalize these slowplays where we block the world, and I think in the end its just PLO and people just aren't folding. I'm sure in a theory vacuum the call is fine.

This

Dammit. I might be even worse at plo than I thought .

River is an off suit 9 (I know all flushes were decided on the turn ldo, but a should be considered a blocker, no?). Villain instantly slam bets his stack (even though he's not allowed to bet that much).

Fold, call, or shove?

snapfold

I mean if he decided to suicide bluff with pot-halfpot-pot line in the spot where all he conceivably can have is a flush (and you have a ton of flushes) good for him, I'm sure I'll catch him in a better spot within an hour

too late to fight fire with fire, you might've gotten away with it if you raised the flop and sized it to have a psb left on the river; it looks like an incredibly tough sell now to someone who's looking for any excuse to call

I'm folding - not a big fan of hero calls in PLO , in this kind of situation where he can so easily have a flush, even against a tilter like this guy. If you didn't have the Ad he could be trying the old dry ace bluff, but not here.

You have position on him and can stack him later hopefully.

Raise flop for value. Yeah, we block KK but we actually have a lot of QTJxdd combos to worry about. You´re rarely WA in PLO.

River is a fold. Us holding the Ad makes it a slamdunk fold.

preflop is very bad. the amount you make limping vs raising is significant

you undersestimate the amount of money you make in a hu pot vs co vs the amount you make in a limp pot, which happens very often when your hand is aak (hint: isoing ranges go down by a lot with stack sizes youve mentioned behind when you have a king, even less if people you are assuming a correct range, which theyre not even aware of, but think about it. i also don't mean a lot as in it gets raised 20% less or something. the actual number is very significant)

the game jumping from 5/10 to 5/10/100 brings out the bitch in people

also want to add that ev of flatting vs raising flop is closer than indicated in thread

(hint: he has more bluffs than value, you get 3bet here a number that is in single digit frequencies, etc but i have no other info to go off of. avg mistake he makes given his range is going to bigger flatting vs raising. this is not close)

sup with all the hints tho?

u can have a piece of pie i just aint givin u the recipe

Attitudes like this are no good for the forum. DGAF has provided so much for this community. Your piece of pie is appreciated, but I don't think you'll be hurting your bottom line by providing a bit of the ingredients. If more people opened up like you, this forum would be a better place to learn.

haha that's cool, I still don't think pf is" very bad" tho (maybe just not as good as raising) because if people have decent hands they WILL put in 100, and if people do that (very likely) co WILL steam pot his option very often, and then I get to iso (what you want to do) while essentially playing for stacks pre, with like 300 dead or whatever from the limp/folders.

I think ^^^ scenario is very likely, it just didn't happen in my sample of 1. And limon (who's pretty damn smart/good and who was at the table- very important) pretty much said the same thing... Otoh, someone I know who is an online plo wizard (and apparently he read the thread) texted me this morning and said 320 pre, so while I'm not really going to argue that flat is best (I'm sure you are a zillion times better than me at plo too), I did want to fight a little for "it's not very bad".

And on the flop I was thinking exactly what you hinted at, which makes me feel a little bit better about the street I thought I played most terribly based on feedback itt...

--

River is interesting to me that since I had the nut blocker, it was a snap-fold in a lot of people's opinions. I get that people bluff most often when they have that card in their hand, but isn't river pot usually reserved for the nuts/air on a board like this? It seems to me in my limited plo experience people/non-pros bet less than pot with 2nd nut type hands, and pot with the joint.

Anyways, I appreciate all the feedback. Seems like people prefer discussing plo over nl these days...

While online PLO wizards are some of the most brilliant poker minds in the community, I'm not sure they'd be fully aware of live FR dynamics of PLO. (If they are / play both then it's different of course and I'm wrong)

In live FR PLO, you have people limp/calling AT62 no suit and stacking off with top/bottom on T86 flops. (Barely exaggerated to make a point)

In the actual hand you just have a nut scenario where it's almost as if you are colluding with CO. You have a "big" hand, he blind puts $100 in, you flat, dead monies is created between you 95% of the time, he pots you pot or someone else pots he calls you pot w/e easy game.

One of the counters to this would be "a lot of stuff has to happen perfectly in that scenario, just raise your value hand ABC style and play poker". Again this is live poker where we have very predictable villains. People will call, villain will tilt raise, both at a very high frequency.

The $100 is not big at all and I'm very surprised it ended up heads up. Again not sure everyone is familiar with live PLO dynamics but a blind $100 straddle is not uncommon in the games I play nor are $25/$50/$100 re-straddles. I can guarantee you no one made any "tight folds" or anything or thought the game just got big for one hand or anything of the sort. If anything someone tank folded AT62 wishing the ace was suited.

Thing is he was probably not that worried that you had the nut flush, because of prior action, and he is a bit of a steamer from the description. In his mind he actually has the effective nuts most of the time.

i'd bet that these online sprites have found some live fr plo before and their advice for this hand isn't tailored to how'd they play h/u or 6m on swc

yeah ive played hundred of hours of live mid/hs plo and i just disagree with a lot of your points here avaritia. once btn who is perceived to be a fearless reg! limps for a hundo a lot of these guys are gonna limp behind a lot of top 15% hands because of live mentality, their lack of understandings of eq, and omg im oop to this live king pin otb / this tilted fish.

also i can guesstimate the ev of this hand once raised and put into hu pots / multi way pots, etc pretty accurately but equating the value of fish raising "a lot" when people limp, raise to him, etc is impossible. a lot is not something i quantify without knowing who i am playing with.

in my experience the jump from 5/10 to 5/10/100 is huge and tightens ranges really significantly for regs as they have to play for stacks with a much higher freq and how live regs will avoid 55/45 races at all costs to realize some greater post flop edge theyve convinced themselves that they have which they base on what equates to nothing concrete, everything assumed.

also i was wrong when i said "very bad" i made an incorrect assumption in something i did to come to that conclusion

The issue here isn't whether a raise is likely once we limp, it is whether the hand will make a larger profit playing multiway for a higher SPR. Again, it seems obvious that with the worst AA** hands we would have an easy limp. The question is of the threshold where it becomes a raise. I feel like his hand is close to that threshold but I'm not sure which side it is on. It seems like with slightly more connectivity i.e. AAKT or AAQ9 it would be an easy raise so perhaps with this hand raising barely beats limping. I think AA92 would be a limp, and it seems like the difference between AAK9 and AA92 is pretty subtle. I could be wrong about that, though.

It is an issue because of your second point. The hand does not make as much money in a limped pot as it would in a raised pot.

I'm raising all of my aces here. From what I know about table stack comp you have one guy with 12k, the next deepest guy that I know of has to fold 8/10 times as he is in the sb, and the rest of the table is shallow.

AA27 makes more in a raised pot ip than in a limped pot. See- amount of equity you realize on average in each situation.

Yeah I can get behind this hand being a raise or any AAxx with a single ace suit for that matter, but I think limping has to be best with AA72r.

I mean it's ok to disagree but if you're only basing this on intuition telling you you'll make more in a limped pot with aa72 vs a raised pot, you're wrong.

Whether or not aa72 makes more on average once you limp vs once you raise is another thing entirely that I don't know the answer to.

Bad at PLO, but I would min-raise this pre (as almost any hand that I would play here). I think it isolates well, keeps the range wide, the same players that would spew will still spew, manipulates the pot size nicely while keeping decent stacks behind. Please talk me out of this line.

All this limping talk IP with this hand makes me very confused.

Did want to add that this would be even more of a fist pump limp if we were overlimping like in the HJ. For the same reason l/rr is profitable in certain NL lineups. Most do it UTG and collect the least amount of dead money possible with a super premium whereas overlimping vs. a 90% raising straddle prints a ton of money.

So I could get behind the raising idea more for the sheer fact we are temp. UTG here and best case we create dead money between us and tiltee and he repots worst case we have a ok value hand OTB in a pot we've started to build vs afc.

I agree with Renton also Id much rather raise better premiums here (like JT98sshh) and this to me is on the threshold (actually below it imo)

Also since everyone is disclaiming I will say like dgaf I only play this godforsaken game when I have to...but I do study it and am at the very least quite familiar with live dynamics. I am also friends with 2 live HSPLO crushers who taught me the basics. When I was first starting out, one told me to not have an opening range pre.