EDIT:

Was going to do a mini-PAHWM, but on second thought, I don't think the hand is a good one for PAHWM. I'm just going to do a standard hand history and if a mod can change title that would be cool, if not then oh well.


V1 (SB) ~$500 - good tag; easily one of the best $1/3 players in our room. plays a disciplined tag style. does not limp pots. plays a tight range. does not over value his hands and goes to value town when he has it. rarely will get out of line/bluff (though he will on occasion if he thinks its a good spot)

V2 (CO) ~$80 - average/bad reg; seen him bluff some bluffs that just didn't make sense; saw him bet 2nd pair on the river (in position) when his hand clearly had some SDV and did not need to be bet (his hand was not good)

Hero (BTN) ~$300; been playing semi-TAGgy; has shown down AA; 15 minutes ago hero lost on the river when he turned a flush (7d3d in the big blind in a limped pot) but the board ran xx555 and V made the boat.

Rest of the table varies from like $150-$250 stacks.

Table dynamics have been typical. not too loose, but passive. friendly table with chatter going around. hero has been having friendly chatter with V1 about hands and other stuff. Hero is on the tail end of a 6 hour session and is getting ready to go in a bit (though table does not know).



Everyone limps around to Hero who is on the button.

Hero has 4h5h. Hero decides to limp. V1 in SB completes and BB checks.

Flop (~$22) Kc 4d 5s
V1 says "ok I'll bet" and bets $15; folds around to V2 who raises to $35

Hero?

I like flatting here, I don't mind opening to $15-20 but flatting seems best as I don't see the SB/BB raising enough for it to be -ev to limp.

if you're gonna raise, you gotta really blast it if there are a bunch of limps (not clear how many?), limping is fine.

@suited fours;

sorry it is a full 9-handed game; so 7 limpers to me on the button.

and again, no longer doing a PAHWM. Just decided a regular hand history is better. thanks guys.

I probably r/f for the amount of V2's remaining stack. V1 has so few combos that beat hero, but it would be a bizarro spot to bluff hero, so if doesn't go away and he's truly an excellent player, I'll give him credit for the 2-4 combos that beat hero.

It's a r/c if you think he'd go nuts with 76o here, but that makes no sense as V2 isn't folding, so he's still gotta hit.

Raise, trying to get in our money good vs the shorty is enough, trapping here can get us in some silly situations on the turn

Definitely raise. Hopefully V1 folds and you get it in with the short stack.

What are we raising to given our stack?

Not sure I really want to gii with bottom two vs. the best player at the table who is leading from the SB into eight other players. Yes, he should fold K4 or K5 pre and it's unlikely he has 44 or 55, but it is a limped pot and we have bottom two. Raise/folding almost a third of our stack does not appeal to me at all. I might call to see V1's reaction, but I might just fold.

Don't go broke in a limped pot.

Just raise/fold to 80. V1 won't continue without a hand that's beating you so I feel safe folding if he comes over the top. SPR with V2 is so small that I absolutely want to get it in. Bottom 2 becomes less savory and more difficult to play as the hand goes on. I want to end the hand now.

Why would he fold average hands like K5 getting 13:1 on a call?

K5o is a snap fold pre.

I know so many (very many) players who will call K5s or K4s from the SB (even unsuited), but a "good tag" should fold them.

I know I'm in a bad mood today but this one just stinks. I've never really liked limped pots that 'explode' even with a pretty good hand.

I don't like a player 'talking' in a pot like this either, but in most cases it's some sort of draw. The issue is that there are no draws for the most part.

I probably would raise to $135 and cross fingers. I like to get a side pot started ASAP in these spots or get the guy out of the hand. I'm not here to flat and let V2 triple up here or face another decision if V1 raises. $135 is enough to force V1 to act per his hand.

My problem is these damn limped pots ... Someone here has KX suited for a cooler. GL

$135/f is gross.

V1, a good tag, led from SB into eight players, including a short-stacker -- I am not putting 100bb in here and I am not raise/folding more than a 1/3 of my stack.

Maybe I'm just chicken, but I'll wait for a better spot.

Heck, we could be behind (or chopping, lol) with V2.

I'm such a loose fish

Start recording how many times you win/lose with these hands from the SB -- with emphasis on amounts.

V1 would 100% fold K4/K5 pre-flop under almost any condition from the SB. However, I'm not sure if he would fold K4s/K5s though given that all 7 players before him limped. It's hard to really knock someone for just completing their SB after every single person limped before you in a full-ring (though if anyone would do it at my casino, this V1 would certainly be).

When V1 leads into 8, I lean more toward a hand like KJ/KT/K9 maybe even KQ. I think KJ/KT V1 would maybe just complete from SB instead of trying to squeeze out 7 limpers and facing a multi-way bloated pot OOp. Even KQo he might just opt for this, though I'm not too sure. So when he leads out into 8 people, it feels more like TP and ok kicker, knowing that he is likely ahead of any Kx vs limpers and just B/F. When V2 raises, which his short stack and just by the fact that he is not a very good player, I assume he can have any Kx here or a hand like 23/67.

Also, if I were to re-raise to like $100, I am inclined to say that V1 is actually folding K4/K5. When I 3-bet raise on the flop, I think V1 knows that I am doing this with one pair, and I want to say he is disciplined enough to not want to get into a big spot with just 2-pair when 44/55 is clearly in my button limping range, but I'm not certain here. if I raise, he is 100% folding any Kx including KQ if he ended up limping something as strong as that.

I'm actually going to start the COTM Off Table Analysis regimen on Monday. I could add this recording category but I feel like it'd take forever for me to get a decent sample. I don't play those hands 6 way, for example. But 9 way?

I'm going to flop two pair or better 3.67% of the time. Using strictly pot odds, I need 7.7% equity to call. My implied odds are obviously better, but not great since I'm OOP 9 way. A fold? Okay. But a surefire snap fold? What if I'm at a particularly awful table?

friends don't let friends complete junk hands from the SB

Rather not turn the thread into a SB limping theory thread.

Like I said, I am 100% V1 folds K4/K5 in almost any situation. This situation is a bit different because every single player limped in before him. I am not sure if he folds K4/K5s in this case, but like I said, 100% sure he folds it in almost any circumstance.

(I think I would complete the SB if 7/7 players limped in before me, just for metagame purposes, but that's just me).

Long gone are the dayz when I tell myself "I'm gonna' leave here in a bit" [having a stack of $300, which can't be much more than what you bought in for] & proceed to "play a few more hands."

Because, when I do, I think about what this speculative hand is going to cost me if I lose, as opposed to having just racked up. I can't play poker when I'm thinking about where I am going to stand +/- wise after the hand.

Tommy Angelo calls is: "Quitting Good"

I'm ok with the Button overlimp but we have to be aware postflop of the RIO this hand has in a lotta situations (worse flush, worse straight, worse trips, worse two pair, etc.). We have position and a good handle on the players, so hopefully we'll be able to figure our when we are in these RIO spots.

I muck the flop. First, the best player in the room just bet into eleventeen opponents from the SB. He's never bluffing, and he's probably never even semi-bluffing this multiway. He completed the SB, so he doesn't have complete trash, although he could have K5s/K4s. Does the best player in the room even donk a Kx on a fairly dry board into eleventeen opponents? There is very good chance he has us beat. On top of that, we have the shortstack willing to play for stacks; yeah, he could just have Kx, but between him and the other guy, there is a very good chance we are behind.

ETA: If we're going to continue, I think I would much rather flat. V1 shouldn't be betting a draw into eleventeen opponents (therefore no reason to charge him for it), and if he continues we know we're beat for the cheapest price possible (there is no way a good player is calling a raise / coldcall with just Kx, right?). Might actually prefer this to folding, and then getting the rest in against V2 on the turn, but folding still might be best.

GimoG

@ZuneIt to be fair.. I had just table changed an hour ago and you can only buy in for $300 max. Had to pocket the rest, and I was up a lot for this session.... It wasn't like the "OK last orbit thing." It was more just like "eh I'm getting tired I should be going soon."