What hand V1 is drawing dead against our bottom 2?


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What does V1 think we have we when take a raise cold to the face with him still to react behind? Unless he thinks we're ******ed (which is possible) he's not doing very good against our range (with bottom two being pretty much the absolute bottom of our range here, and that's the only hand he's likely got more than 2 outs against if behind, plus he still has to consider the shortstack is sucking up some of his outs).

GcluelessrangingnoobG

Lol I like how you sneak in the "which is possible" after you saw my lol bad play......

V1 does not perceive me as a bad player fwiw, though probably looser than his standards (although 99.9% of 1/3 players are)

Exactly r80 then fold to all in if u must....

Quitting Reciprocality - Tommy Angelo

"Walking away is easy. The hard part is standing up." — Tommy Angelo

I have always had very strict policies when it comes to quitting, even when I first started playing poker. Back then I had two main quitting rules that I never broke. I would always quit if I was out of money and nobody would lend me any, and I would always quit if everybody else did.

Eventually I quit all that stuff. I quit running out of money, and I quit being the last guy to quit. Nowadays I think of quitting as a skill set unto itself, with branching subsets of skills for each type of quitting situation. There's knowing how to quit at limit games, and there's knowing how to quit at no-limit. There's knowing how to quit when you have a curfew, and when you don't. There's being able to quit when you're ahead, and when you're stuck. There's quitting when you feel good, and for when that doesn't happen, you need to know how to quit when you feel bad. There are many ways to outquit your opponents.

One thing about tournaments is nobody ever quits. That decision is done for you, or rather, to you. The good news is, it is impossible to make a bad quitting decision in a tournament. The bad news is, your opponents can't screw it up either, which means there is no reciprocal gold to be found in tournaments by the superior quitter.

By one way of looking at it, I have made tens of thousands of terrible quitting decisions. Times when everything was wrong. When I was tired. And tilted. And the game was bad. But I'd play on. I'm talking situations where a panel of quitting experts would unanimously decree: "You are severely injured and you are bleeding all over the table. Quit. Quit now."

But I wouldn't. I'd take the next hand. And that'd be one bad quitting decision. After that hand, I'd have the option to quit, but no, I'd take another hand — I'd make another quitting mistake. That's two quitting mistakes in four minutes. And I had just begun to not quit.

In time, my blood started to clot, and I got a little bit better at quitting, and then a little more better, and then one day I realized that every session of cash-game poker I ever play will end on a quit, so I really should continue forever to work on getting better at quitting, and a few years later I realized that if I wanted to quit well every session, then I'd have to be sharp at the very end of every session, since that's always when the quitting happens, and a few years after that I realized that no action is an island, that everyone else's sessions always end on a quit too, and that the real reason there is money to be made by quitting well is because sometimes my opponents don't. Reciprocality.

[Quitting a 1/2 hr after you have realized that you're getting tired is not "quitting when I'm still sharp. I've lost track of the number of times that people, who were up $600+, have their chips racked up with a working stack on the table, with the intention of leaving when the BB gets to them & blow off $100 or more. It's freakin' sad.]

Me - So, when I start to feel it coming on, I get up & take at least a 15 minute walk. Watch 'em shoot Craps, or whatever. Give my body the chance to drain the adrenaline from sitting at the poker table focused on the game.

I don't drink any sugar, as it will give me a false sense of what I call "ok-id-ness"

I have read Angelo's article probably close to 100 times, yet I have still had 3 sessions where I got caught up in a hand & fell into what he calls "entitlement tilt." http://tommyangelo.com/articles/reciprocality/

There's only 2 things I've mastered at poker:

1. I never pee on my Button.
2. If, after 2 hours, I have a losing image, I leave [the table]. - Phil Ivey

I wish that I could say that there was a 3rd: I quit really good. However, when I'm at the table with a few friends, I'll stay, when I'm no longer sharp, if we're all having a good time. Which means all 3 of us have had a healthy win session. Even then, I've never "blown off $100" waiting for the blinds to get to me.

I guess I'll have to read Angelo's article 1000 times before I come close to mastering everything in his article.

A major step in poker is to have 'reasons' behind every action and 'be ready' to deal with my opponents reactions. I agree that we need to step outside 'the norm' in our poker games in order to test our boundaries, but don't 'just do it'. Have a reason for each action and then study the results. There are still going to be disasters for sure.

It's pretty easy to tear down any action you take here fold/call/raise/shove but it's more important for you to see differences between the actions (and opponent reaction options) and then choose where you want to go 'this hand'. There are merits in all 4 actions in my book depending on opponent types and stack sizes.

I think the biggest lesson to learn here has yet to be acknowledged by OP. Don't get married to your hand. Recognize the spot and be willing to gear down even when you 'hit'. Should you have played 45? Debatable, but you did .. and then you hit it hard, YESS!! But why are these other guys betting into me?

Every hand doesn't need to be a 'war', some just need to be 'battles'. GL

One mistake a lot of players make are in pots with one deep stack and one short stack. You have an SPR of about 15 with one and 4 with the other before betting commences. 45s is a fine if played well, but bottom two pair isn't really a true committal hand in a limped family pot for an SPR of 15. Obviously this is why people are advocating a raise to 80/fold.

I'd just try to learn from this mistake and don't forget just how quickly a hand gets out of control if we mess up multiway pots with this dynamic.

Many subscribe to the belief that you need 15:1 implied odds on your preflop investment to call with a pocket pair of 55 or less to recover that money you lose when you flop a set & still lose. I don't use such a static requirement to call pre with 55.

Flopping 2pr or better with K5o is 26.24:1 [using your 3.67%] vs. 7.5:1 for a set or better with 55. PLUS: You're OOP. There's the old adage: "You win less with your big hands & lose more OOP than you do IP."

Playing Drawing Hands Out of Position

"Simply put: Playing drawing hands out of position gives you fewer options and can get you into awkward spots if you miss (both on the turn and on the river). So generally it tends to be less profitable. But, despite this, it's still critical to play aggressively.

The primary reason it's less profitable is if you miss your draw on the turn, you don't have the option of checking behind and taking a free card. If you check and your opponent senses weakness and bets the turn, you'll usually have to give up the hand and miss the extra shot at the pot on the river."
http://www.pokerlistings.com/nolimit...-drawing-hands

And they're talking about "drawing hands." So with K5, on a flop of K76, it's folded to the HJ who bets 60% of the pot with his T8. You're up to bat..............with all those players between you & the HJ, any of who could have K9s.

I didn't go thru all this for cannabusto. I did it to reaffirm my belief. If I'm wrong, I hope someone I know tells me so.

Nice post, ty.

The question isn't if he could have K5 or K4 or KQ/J/T here, it's what he does with it if you smooth call V2's raise.

I would venture that described V would move in with the 2 pair combos and call or fold with his one pair hands. Since we don't mind getting it in against V2, and don't expect V1 to get tricky with 67 or KQ, per your description, this would be one of those times I would call/fold to his jam.

As Mark Twain said, "learning to play two small pair is as expensive as a college education, and twice as profitable."

+1

Raise/fold is terrible

btw, appreciate all the posts. the shove was definitely a spazz/spew/careless/massive mistake. but i appreciate posts that help provide insight, rather than just "lol bad" type comments. thanks all.