1/3 NL.

Hero. Card dead. Can't get anything going and feels tilted. Bought in for 300 and down to 200 after trying to bluff a station with AcJx on 9-8-5-7-7 dscch runout when station had called a 3! pre with Q6cc. Frustrated and needs to go for a walk or just leave. 200$ MP.

V. OMC of OMCs. plays a small stack until he gets premiums then jams. Always bets his made hands. 109$, on H's immediate right (UTG+2ish).

The hand:

Folds to V who makes it 10 with AJ. Hero sees V flips his cards up as V is not protecting his hand. H doesnt see the suits but thinks they're offsuit and one was a . No one else seems to know that H saw V's hand.

H calls with 4 5

Woman, bad tag calls, (competent but too wide pre), she has position. All else fold. Woman covers.

Flop 30 - 4 8 J

V bets 25, H calls, Woman folds.

Turn 80 - 7

V rams 74$

Hero?

Raise all-in on flop. As played call turn (this is just a math question).

If a card is flipped up when dealt, I always make sure the dealer replaces it. If the player exposes his own hand, then it's a question of whether he knows he exposed it or not. If unaware then obviously we want to make him aware, but if you bring it up some players might turn it into a lot more drama than it's worth. If I wasn't planning to play my hand and I don't think anyone knows his cards were exposed then I won't say anything during the hand. But yeah, in general the right thing is to tell the table he exposed his hand.

If cards are exposed because they flipped by accident then you should tell them. If a person is flashing their cards themselves I will warn them the first time or two they do it but after that it's their own fault.

As played it's a toss up that will be around 0EV on the turn. Folding or shoving flop would have been better. Still around 0 in abstract but you would have had some FE at that point.

Fold preflop is probably the best play despite knowing villain's hand. Villain's short stack makes it less enticing but the real problem is that you are too far OOP. You can't expect this to go heads up and multiway OOP will negate most of your advantage.

Hero turned a gutter in addition to the two-pair and flush draws… it should be +EV to call turn.

Hero should have folded pre without knowing Vs cards because it’s the best strategy, and it’s not very close. We shouldn’t be playing suited connectors versus a short stack.

About whether to call pre because we know villains hand. This is really venturing into unethical behavior .. if you only consider calling because you saw a card flash, you now have an unfair strategic advantage over every player in the hand. The villain who flashed cards is not necessarily the only one who loses money because of Hero’s knowledge. For instance if V whiffs and cbets an Th8h4c board, Hero can raise and push a third player out of the hand with a Tx.

If the knowledge of Vs cards influenced you to call pre with hand you would otherwise fold, I believe this is unethical behavior.

Of course, if you have a monster hand, you should play it even if you see a card flash. But I’d fold pretty much every borderline hand and then warn the guy that he is flashing cards.

Obviously have to try to address your tilt / entitlement issues, those are killers.

I would probably say something like "dude, you have to protect your hand more, I'm pretty sure I saw it and know what you have". And while I'd ethically have no problem continuing in the hand after declaring I know my opponents hand and using that information to my benefit, I think we're in far too early a position to do that here (either by calling or raising). ETA: Note that I'd probably make sure the table / dealer also heard my declaration of knowing his cards, and simply let them deal with it as they see fit.

I would also just call the flop. I think normally I would probably jam the OMCs stack because sometimes he is doing this with hands he could fold (overcards / underpair), but obviously he's never folding TPTK this short.

Turn is simply a math question. We're getting about 2:1 on a call. We have probably 17 outs (maybe 16) against his known hand. Using the rule of 2 and 4 that puts us right about what we need. So looks like a breakevenish situation. I'd probably lean to call for image / tilt inducing purposes.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Idk why people keep saying this is a breakeven call on turn.


Even versus AhJx we have 36.7% equity (the rule of 2 is actually closer to the rule of 2.3). It’s a +$10 EV call on the turn. Versus AJ (no heart) we have 38.7% equity and it’s even better.

Assuming you called wp, very easy call on turn. If you saw his cards before you acted pre is fine, and lowkey a cib might have been best.

edit: some of y'all need to brush up on your equity calcs, turn is not close.

Result:

lol open faced karma sandwich, just fold pre regardless of the edge you suspected you had.

Again, lol.

Calling off ~10% of your effective stack vs. a huge nit with 5-high seems incredibly bad. We know he doesn't have a dominating flush draw, cool, still doesn't remotely make this a call. Flop, you got the best possible result you can hope for, just stick it in now. Turn, flip a coin I guess?

If it was me, I fold pre and tell the guy 'I didn't see your hand but you flashed your cards and I could have seen them, just letting you know' or something similar. If I was going to play this hand, I either say something similar or wait until after, could go either way. My policy is warn once, after that its your problem.

Playing a crappy hand versus a shortstacking NIT because it’s sooted is a preflop leak.

Playing a crappy hand versus a shortstacking NIT only because you saw his cards is unethical. Full stop. Kinda surprised I’m the only one who thinks that.

I was pretty much implying the same thing Chaos.
It’s appropriate that he doubled the guy up. It’s also amusing on multiple levels.

It's unethical for sure but I feel like there's a difference between knowing the guy's actual hand and thinking that the cards are offsuit and one is a . Should still speak up though.

What should happen procedurally if you speak up in this situation, mid-hand? I've only seen other players cards twice, once I wasn't in the hand and I told the guy after the hand (he was just kind of careless but I don't think anyone else saw them), the other time I told him quietly before folding, he was next to act & I don't believe anyone else saw them.

Ive found that over the course of 4 months now I am the only one that ever tells someone else I can see their cards and I have probably alerted a player to this over 15 times now. I can't remember one time another player warned another player that they saw their cards. Am I just an honest sucker in a game full of dishonest people? Should I stop being so honest?

Everyone has to answer this question for themselves, my rule is tell once and after that its on them. How the hell has this happened 15 times in 4 months, do you play with a bunch of drunks?

All I was saying is that intentions matter. If you only played a crappy hand because you want to exploit information, that’s different from playing AA after you see a card.

There’s more of a dilemma if you see a players cards after you’ve entered the pot. This happened once to me. I wasn’t sure of the proper etiquette in that scenario, I just played out the hand and told the player at the end.

This is a cut throat game and the rules of every card room that I've ever played in are clear: players are responsible for protecting their own hand.

I am always looking at peoples hands and I see a lot of cross table flashes where people pick up the far side of their cards too high as they muck which I'd say is 1/2 the flashes and the other half are people to my right lifting too high. To be fair there might be times where I can't hear all the table talk and I am sure theres been times where other players have warned their neighbour about seeing their hand but I find it strange that I still haven't actually heard it happen yet.

I agree with this. I dont think it is necessary to tell a player they are exposing cards. If you are are not actively seeking out a players cards and they show them to you, you are letting them know how much you are paying attention to them. And they may change how they play vs you as a result. If I am doing what I normally do and nothing more, Im not sure how it falls on me to let the player know he is messing up.

Exception is I will tell someone who is obviously newer to playing poker or new to playing live poker. It is normally, easy to tell when this is the case. I think it is our responsibility to let someone who has no idea what his or her responsibilities are to know. I wait until they muck and and say something quietly about, hey make sure no one else can see your cards when you look.

Probably 90/10 where I end up telling because they are new than dont tell because it is on them and they know the rules and their responsibility.

If you and only you know one players cards then you can easily steal EV from every other player at the table. This is a multi-player game. That’s where my main problem with all this comes in. Every other player has an informational disadvantage to you.

Basically, this argument taken to an extreme can be, if the other player is knowingly sharing his card information with you, you can use that information to steal EV from other players. E.g., player 1 (who exposed his cards) semi-bluffs flop, you raise next to act knowing he has air, and every other player in the hand has to fold 90% of their range. You’re stealing money from the other players. This is basically a classic collusion strategy if player 1 is in on it. Him not being in on the scheme doesn’t make it more ethical.

All of this was discussed at length in the SkillsRocks thread on NVG. (On Hustler stream earlier this year, SkillsRocks was purposefully leaning back to look at a players cards, and using that information to make wild postflop plays.)

While I certainly agree with this, I think there is only so much we are ethically obliged to do and then it is up to everyone to protect their hand. If we announce loudly to the opponent / table / dealer, "dude, I can see your hand every time", then I think we've done our part. If he continues to do it, it is now up to the others to protect their own hand ("hey, did he just flash you his hand again? Dealer, can you take care of this?").

But, I'll admit, I've become slightly more every-man-for-himself over the years to some extent. It is up to everyone to protect their own hand, and if I feel I've done my part then I'm not going to continue babysitting everyone else.

GcluelesscutthroatnoobG

Im not sure taking the argument to the extreme is relative. We are talking normal course of a game is it my responsibility to tell therest of the table I can see cards if Im goi g about my usual business of observing what people do at the table. Not leaning back to get an angle of somwone cards.

A situation I find much much more often is dealers pitching cards too high and being able to see a card, a suit, or if it is broadway or not. Am I obligated to tell the dealer he is doing a poor job at dealing? Pitching at shoulder level while he talks to the table? Or do I not make waves and take my cards and realize what I saw might matter in 1 out of 300 hands. Not one other person has ever mentioned it to the dealer in all the time I have played.

Job #1 of any dealer is protecting the players hands. If they are doing this I would talk to the floor nicely about said dealer and not make a big scene about it at the table.

I get where you are coming from. But, Im not trying to do anything to make an employee look bad to his boss. These dealers call off enough as it is. Seems like every time I go a quarter of them cant make it to work that day. Leading me to believe they less than love their job already.

If I knew the dealer or we were shooting the **** sometime Privately or before a game opened I would bring it up. On a personal level. But I prefer in a game where Im not playing to get rich and is less than .1% of my life bankroll Im going to let the game progress as if any other player was there but me. And no other player has ever said anything to a dealer that I have ever seen at the tables.

The issue is much less likely to be fixed if you tell the dealer vs telling management. My casino cuts a pile of corners to a laughable degree but Ive still yet to see a dealer deal the cards too high. If its multiple dealers your casino has a shitty training program and it might just be better to find another place to play but I don't think telling the dealer hes doing a bad job is going to fix the problem over the long run.