I don't think it's clearly more +EV than limping, especially OOP.

JJ/TT has an overcard flop lots. If we're in position and against straightforward players, we can probably do fairly well postflop; otherwise, meh.

Setmining with these hands isn't totally ******ed either. We see a very multiway pot and don't raise any moron out of the pot preflop that could possibly stack off postflop. And if we don't flop a set and board is gross, we get away for extremely cheap. And if board flops ok, we can still play a smallish but reasonable pot postflop.

I realize I'm in the minority on this, but limping these hands, especially OOP, is not as horrendous as everyone makes it out to be, imo.

GminorityG

I will say to Ggs credit in that regard that you don't get overset stackoffs unless you allow the underset into the hand. A small, rare thing but a fair minor point in favour of limping those hands.

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I used to limp KK in this spot when Ifirst started playing lol. OOP vs 1 opponent wasn't too bad for me but I never thought anyone would fold and didn't want to go to the flop 4-,5-way.

But for OP, start thinking about putting $ in good vs putting $ in bad, regardless of the outcome of the hand.

As an example, I recently had AQ, V ended up having Q6. V limped pre, I raised behind, he called. Flop 789, V c/c my cbet (not my best-timed c-bet ever, but w/e). Turn Q, V c/c my bet for value now. River 5, I checked about 0.0001 seconds after V checked and his straight won. But V made at least 3 horrible mistakes that hand, he won the pot, but I didn't put 1 cent in behind. That's how you need to analyze your hands. I was pissed the 5 hit, but couldn't have played it any better.

So with the mid-high pp's, get value preflop, and make good decisions on later streets as the board falls.

Well first off set over set happens 1% of the time. Second off people aren't limp folding small PPs unless u make a massive overraise. They're limp calling small PPs a lot....some do that even if its 15% of their stacks.

I agree that it's not horrible to limp these hands. It's still +ev....raisin is almost always higher +ev with hands like jj, 1010,ak,aq. The one time I may prefer a limp is when up against aggro non maniacs when deep (like 200+bb deep). The reason we raise is simple. Our hand has a much better chance of holdin up. People are way more likely to go broke with marginal holdings In a raised pot. We can easily play for stacks by takin a bet bet bet line when we get a good flop...etc. it's the same reasons we raise with QQ+ (but to a lesser extent as we are more vulnerable to overs). Also people are way way less likely to limp in w/ QQ+ than they are to limp in wih smaller PPs so we are building a large pot with what is almost certainly the higher PP.

Ya, I agree; I'm not worried about the set/set case at all. I'm more talking about when we raise A2o out of the hand preflop and would have flopped a set on a A high flop, and such. In cases like these, I think it's fine (or at the very least, not "insane") to pass on smallish equity advantages for smallish money preflop in order to capitalize on huge equity advantages for huge money postflop.

This is called trips, not a set. A set is way more powerful and the only time u get a lot of action with trip aces low kicker is when they have u beat lol. Raising pre with A2o is usually a bad play IMO even with position. Btw I used to limp in with hands like jj, ak thinking the same thing as u. It took a ton of practice before Ilearned otherwise

You're misreading my post. My example is the case where we have JJ, we raise, and we fold out the moron who has A2o, only to then see a AJx flop where we coulda stacked him postflop, and instead just take his $3 preflop.

Basically, what I'm saying overall is that is isn't as simple as saying "I have JJ, I have an equity advantage, therefore I raise preflop".

Oh, come on, guys, I was just wanting to make a fair minor point.

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JJ and 1010 have to be raises preflop in multi way limped pots in these spots the majority of the time. Mixing it up is important but really we should be raising to attempt getting the pot heads up when our opponent calling is often dominated.
Not to mention you only flop a piece 1/3 times the so having 10-10 with 2 or 3 way action isn't the end of the world an often times you can C bet for value even if an over card does hit. The sizing is important and it takes practice but over all it has to be way better to raise with 99-JJ were having AJ or A10 Are drawing hands and I am fine checking behind and playing after the flop. There are always exceptions depending on table dynamics but as a general rule it should be a raise.

My bad. The problem is that this will not happen often enough. U flop a set 12% of the time AND the guy has to flop TP AND he has to be bad enough to stack off. If he's bad enough to stack off he's almost certainly bad enough to call a sizable raise pre wih a weak ace. By raising pre u don't have to flop a set or overpair to win either if u can get it heads up. And I'm not raising pre jus cause I have good equity. I don't raise small PPs pre OOP even tho I usually have the best hand pre. They just don't flop well unless u hit a set whereas jj, 1010 can flop overpair or still often be best against 1 or 2 players in a raised pot even if an over pops