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4-Betting preflop with something less than KK or AA 4-Betting preflop with something less than KK or AA

02-11-2011 , 03:28 PM
A couple weeks ago I posted HH's where I was at a 2/5 NL table, I raised to $25 in EP pre-flop with QQ and JJ, and both times got 3bet. Not one person in either of those threads suggested that I 4bet; most said to flat while a few said fold.

This got me thinking--in low stakes NLHE do you guys ever 4bet with hands that aren't AA or KK? I suppose if you know villain's game really well, or if the effective stacks are low, OK.

But let's say villain(s) is/are an unknown(s), and all of you have 100BB stacks. Will you 4bet with anything less than KK or AA, in early or late position?
4-Betting preflop with something less than KK or AA Quote
02-11-2011 , 03:39 PM
I four bet QQ most of the time I am three bet.
4-Betting preflop with something less than KK or AA Quote
02-11-2011 , 03:42 PM
The answer is yes and no...

Its table flow dependent player dependent your image etc.

Most of the time we say flat because of the description someone has given where 4betting is not warranted. One for value two if we get jammed given stack dependent are you folding jj. QQ has alittle more leeway IMO. Also IMO AK should be more appart of your 3bet range then then jj...as against certain. Opponents and certain stacks I don't mind stacking off with AK. Stacks are a huge portion of this to the pot ratio as well. If someone 3bets you hold qq and there's 4 callers behind and your in terrible position a 4bet may be in need. Position is key as well. There's just so many situations to consider to answer such a black and white question.

4betting in live games is.very strong always...most of your hands for live play IMO get more value from postflop play as most live players are terrible postflop...that's where our edge is IMO. So any hand Wed face a 5bet jam we obviously acquire more value from not facing such a terrible and unwarranted decision spot..
4-Betting preflop with something less than KK or AA Quote
02-11-2011 , 03:47 PM
Personally yes, I am going broke with AA KK QQ and AK pre heads up and 100BBs deep. Maybe 1/10 times I'll fold AK if the situation/player is such, but I'm still stacking off mostly.
4-Betting preflop with something less than KK or AA Quote
02-11-2011 , 03:50 PM
At 2/5 in my area you can start to 4bet with your QQ for value or other hands for bluffs, villain dependent. But the 1/3 here I would never do it, albeit rarely to a competent aggressive player.
4-Betting preflop with something less than KK or AA Quote
02-11-2011 , 04:05 PM
Man if the effective stacks are low there is no point to call 3 bet with QQ JJ all in or fold You just dont have any room for outplaying someone on the flop after 3 bet with low stacks.
4-Betting preflop with something less than KK or AA Quote
02-11-2011 , 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by =VH= Fan
But let's say villain(s) is/are an unknown(s), and all of you have 100BB stacks. Will you 4bet with anything less than KK or AA, in early or late position?
So given the stacks, your talking about a 4-bet shove? Anything else seems pointless

Sarge
4-Betting preflop with something less than KK or AA Quote
02-11-2011 , 05:00 PM
If I open QQ or AK or 97s in ep and am 3bet by an Unknown 100bb deep my hands going in the muck every time. (unless 3bet is min or some bs like that, and depending on my hand, even then). I dont see what the merit of 4betting would be.
4-Betting preflop with something less than KK or AA Quote
02-11-2011 , 05:12 PM
As with almost every other decision in poker, it depends heavily on opponent, image, and position. Raising UTG and getting 3bet by a tight, positionally aware opponent is a very, very different situation from raising the button and getting 3bet by a maniac.
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02-11-2011 , 05:21 PM
I would say that stack size has a lot to do with it too. I am more apt to 4bet shove with QQ or even JJ if I am shallow stacked. The same becomes true if super deep being able to fold to a 5 bet if necessary.

And like others have said. It becomes so player and read dependant.
4-Betting preflop with something less than KK or AA Quote
02-11-2011 , 05:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeThomasHowl
If I open QQ or AK or 97s in ep and am 3bet by an Unknown 100bb deep my hands going in the muck every time. (unless 3bet is min or some bs like that, and depending on my hand, even then). I dont see what the merit of 4betting would be.
There is none. The people who are shoving are internet players. I raise to 10 or 12, and thats all ive invested, and im suppose to go all in for 200 or 300 with Queens? Horrific.
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02-11-2011 , 05:43 PM
1/2 and 2/5 Are different from your example...and yea certain situations do require 4 betting.

Also if you open 12 they three bet to 35-50 how does that require you to open jam? No offense your example is pretty flawed and way off mark.

Besides op question is in regard to 2/5.
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02-11-2011 , 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rizasutton
1/2 and 2/5 Are different from your example...and yea certain situations do require 4 betting.
The only "situations" you would 4 bet are if your stack is 60 bucks, or the opponent has been SUPER aggressive. Those situations are rare. 4 betting is foolish 90 plus percent of the time.
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02-11-2011 , 05:55 PM
opening QQ 4x EP and 4 betting an unknown 3 bettor at low limit NL, is lighting money on fire. it doesnt matter to be balanced at this level.
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02-11-2011 , 05:55 PM
Explain why?

But ill give you my opinion...1/2 id never do it

2/5 it depends when to do it.

Also I'm pretty sure 90% of the time it isn't warranted. But as stated situations arise where it is plausible that a 4bet is proper pending many situations.

So for you to say that 90% of time its foolish tells me two things...you aren't thinking beyond level 2 and are playing ABC poker at 1/2 which is fine. But as you move up in stakes moving beyond level 2 thinking is def in need.

I mean yea were not 4 betting every AK or QQ but when a situation arises that merits us to do so we should take advantage of it...not just blindly Think "o this is foolish 90% of time".

But yes most situations don't need us to 4bet here with these hands. Situations arise and you have to be able to adapt and take an edge not just play robot poker. But ill also agree against an unknown ill consider them to be droolers until proven other wise. So for the most part 4 betting isn't in need
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02-11-2011 , 05:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AintNoLimit
opening QQ 4x EP and 4 betting an unknown 3 bettor at low limit NL, is lighting money on fire. it doesnt matter to be balanced at this level.
This is a situation where we would be brain dead to consider this.
4-Betting preflop with something less than KK or AA Quote
02-11-2011 , 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rizasutton
Explain why?

But ill give you my opinion...1/2 id never do it

2/5 it depends when to do it.

Also I'm pretty sure 90% of the time it isn't warranted. But as stated situations arise where it is plausible that a 4bet is proper pending many situations.

So for you to say that 90% of time its foolish tells me two things...you aren't thinking beyond level 2 and are playing ABC poker at 1/2 which is fine. But as you move up in stakes moving beyond level 2 thinking is def in need.

I mean yea were not 4 betting every AK or QQ but when a situation arises that merits us to do so we should take advantage of it...not just blindly Think "o this is foolish 90% of time".

But yes most situations don't need us to 4bet here with these hands. Situations arise and you have to be able to adapt and take an edge not just play robot poker.
See "unknown" in OP. Otherwise I agree.
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02-11-2011 , 06:02 PM
Thomas I made an edit.

But I agree...but what if that unknown we see through 2 orbits of play he's a total spewtard....things might change alittle.

Or even first orbit...and you see him do some stupid stuff maybe that changes the way we play.

All's I'm saying is **** happens and nothing in poker is never.

If someones saying 90% of time it isn't needed I agree.

If someone's saying that when a situation arises to do it and That 90% of time its foolish...I disagree.

Last edited by rizasutton; 02-11-2011 at 06:12 PM.
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02-11-2011 , 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaffer
As with almost every other decision in poker, it depends heavily on opponent, image, and position.
x2

To the original poster, post some MORE hands - don't ask a broad question.
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02-11-2011 , 06:32 PM
The real question is what to do if someone 3bets you. If you haven't read this COTW, you should.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...3-bets-483541/

Let's look at the bet size progression. If you start with a 4BB raise, the 3bet raise is going to be around 12BB and you have to call 8BB. With 100BB stacks, this means you shouldn't be calling for set mining purposes only. The SPR ratio is going to be around 4:1, so your bluff possibilities are limited if the 3bettor has a hand. You won't hit your set often enough to get paid enough.

Therefore, if you are calling, you should be calling for value. Obviously, being oop raises the requirement of the value of your hand.

Finally, 3bet ranges change depending on your position. Someone 3betting range when you're in the CO is different their their 3bet range when you're UTG.

FWIW, the standard move if you are unsure what to do and you're facing a 3bet is to fold unless you have AA or KK. Then 4bet.
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02-11-2011 , 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
The real question is what to do if someone 3bets you. If you haven't read this COTW, you should.
this was my thought also. all those people who told OP they would call the 3bet with QQ, are we set mining for an extra 10bb?

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
Finally, 3bet ranges change depending on your position. Someone 3betting range when you're in the CO is different their their 3bet range when you're UTG.
this must be for some pretty solid LLNL games. 1/2 NL players generally don't adapt to the fact that your raise comes from EP or wherever. their 3bet ranges may depend on THEIR position if they're reasonably aware.

i also don't know how recommended it is to adjust your calling and raising ranges too much based on the initial raiser's position. a lot of 1/2 NL players' opening ranges barely differ between UTG and HJ. positional awareness for a lot of players means "play loose OTB". this is obv villain dependent, but i think a good 1/2 NL player should adjust his calling and raising ranges from LP to this phenomenon. (meaning, don't adjust them too much if villain is UTG vs. MP)
4-Betting preflop with something less than KK or AA Quote
02-11-2011 , 08:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8o8
this was my thought also. all those people who told OP they would call the 3bet with QQ, are we set mining for an extra 10bb?



this must be for some pretty solid LLNL games. 1/2 NL players generally don't adapt to the fact that your raise comes from EP or wherever. their 3bet ranges may depend on THEIR position if they're reasonably aware.

i also don't know how recommended it is to adjust your calling and raising ranges too much based on the initial raiser's position. a lot of 1/2 NL players' opening ranges barely differ between UTG and HJ. positional awareness for a lot of players means "play loose OTB". this is obv villain dependent, but i think a good 1/2 NL player should adjust his calling and raising ranges from LP to this phenomenon. (meaning, don't adjust them too much if villain is UTG vs. MP)
I disagree, if you want to be a winning player. Every move must be accounted for. Such as planning ahead. I


Live players are clueless. But that doesn't mean they play poker like monkeys. Most if not all of the players watch wsop. Have read some kind of book. So ranges differ because everything is situational in poker, don't think like a cave man. Or some noob who thinks knowone knows the rules of poker.
4-Betting preflop with something less than KK or AA Quote
02-11-2011 , 09:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8o8
this must be for some pretty solid LLNL games.
See, I would figure the opposite.

If I get 3bet from an unknown I assume they are L1 and have QQ+, AK.
4-Betting preflop with something less than KK or AA Quote
02-11-2011 , 09:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KurtSF
See, I would figure the opposite.

If I get 3bet from an unknown I assume they are L1 and have QQ+, AK.
I agree I've found it sage to assume any unknown is a level 1 drooler
4-Betting preflop with something less than KK or AA Quote
02-11-2011 , 09:28 PM
sorry, just to clarify. i may have interpreted venice's statement incorrectly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
Finally, 3bet ranges change depending on your position. Someone 3betting range when you're in the CO is different their their 3bet range when you're UTG.
i interpreted this to mean: "villain's 3bet range changes based on hero's position, assuming hero raised and got 3bet by villain. villain's 3betting range when hero raises from cutoff is different than his 3betting range when hero raises from UTG."

so we were talking about how to respond to villain's 3bet based on this.

the way you guys probably interpreted it was that villain's 3betting range varies with villain's position.
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