Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogurt Daddy
If youÂ’re not 4 betting KQsÂ…Â… what are you 4betting besides QQ+ and AK???
You saying he butchered the hand and then saying this is never a 4bet pre because you donÂ’t want to get jammed onÂ…..while also saying heÂ’s playing scared moneyÂ…..is kinda ironic.
Textbook calling range??? ItÂ’s absolutely not.
So, instead of being jammed, we flat and he gets 3 streets of value from AA, KK, QQ, and AQÂ…Â…..
“Don’t be a nit”
“why are you playing scared money”
“Don’t 4bet KQs because getting jammed on is horrible”
WtfÂ…Â…
You completely missed my point. OP specifically stated he's playing scared money, and I pointed out it's a bad idea. I'm not psychologically 'scared' of getting jammed on, I think it would be a strategic disaster, so I respectfully disagree with Mr. Petrangelo. Let me elaborate.
I don't have solved ranges for these BTN straddle spots, but I pretty much only play this garbage structure nowadays, so I have studied it quite a bit both in game and away from the tables. It's very similar to the normal SB v BB spots, but a little tighter. Exactly how much tighter it is depends on how big the straddle is compared to the blinds. So in theory BTN should 3b a fairly wide polar range, where the bluffs come from the bottom of the calling range, very unintuitive sort of trash hands like T4s, 98o, A2o etc.
I played around 500 hours this year, the vast majority in this structure and I've not seen a single one of these 3b bluffs. I usually play the highest stakes my casino has, so it's not even 1/2, but to be fair it's a small and weak room, there are maybe 3 competent regs, the rest are of the nitty ABC type. So there's a chance this guy can find bluffs, but I'd expect him to miss at least some of them. Afaik regs at online midstakes under3b from the BB, and that's a 10x harder and more technical game than a 5/10 private game, where you bumhunt a dentist and a pothead pizza delivery guy who inherited from his rich uncle.
I also found that people don't go thin enough for value in general. It's very comfortable to just flat 66-99, QTs, etc. People are also somewhat unaware positionally in general, they loosen up less than they should in late positions. So what ends up happening is when the BTN straddle 3bets it's actually a lot scarier than it should be.
I suspect the range you brought expects villain to have all these trash hands that fold, and a bunch of worse to call, like all suited broadways, suited aces (ok that's not worse equitywise, but still we're in decent shape), suited connectors, medium pairs, while I think AA and maybe even KK traps a bit, so we don't get blown off our equity that often.
Now this is a completely baseless assumption in my experience, without reads I wouldn't expect KQs to get called by worse all that often. OP even hinted he expects some light 5bets, which would be really bad for our hand. I don't want to 4b because I think it's too thin for value and too good to bluff. I also expect to get shoved on more often than at equilibrium, because his 3b range is stronger than it should be to begin with and people undervalue position in postflop play, so they fastplay pre more than they should.
About what I'd 4b, against a decent amount of people I'd literally only 4b premiums, because they 3b so tight from this position that bluffing is suicide. Against this guy, who I expect to be better, I'd go TT+ AQ+ for value and bluff hands that are too weak to call and don't really mind getting shoved on, while having solid blockers to the continuing range, like the worse Axs, K5s-K8s, A9o etc.
Being concerned about flatting and paying off premiums when hitting a pair is extremely backwards logic. We call down because it's a +EV call all the way. If it's not because they always have it then fold, otherwise we're making money from their bluffs/worse value hands. What you suggest here is the exact logic recs use when donking into the field with second pair to 'find out where they're at'. Ok you find it out, but get called by better and fold out worse in the process.