3Bet Defense

2/5 Live 9 handed

Hey guys. Today I was playing a 2/5 session. Effective stack was $800 and SB is a reg who is a solid TAG player. My question pertains to 3bet defense vs his 3bet.

A very tight player on BTN opens the pot for $25. I called on the button with 88 and SB 3bet to $125. BTN folded and I called. Flop was J93 rainbow and villain bet $150 into $275 and I folded.

Should I be calling with 88 here? Could someone give me a general idea of what types of hands I should be calling with in this situation? I.e HJ or CO opens, hero calls on BTN and SB or BB 3bets ..

Game I play in is $800 max so usually we are 150-160 BB effective

Your order of action has two buttons. Assuming the very tight player is in LP but isn't button then it's a fold when a solid player 3 bets from SB. He will be aware the the opener has a narrow strong range also and will almost always have a strong value hand. Effective stacks here just force the issue, when SB makes it $125 with effective stacks of $800 the SPR is going to be trivial on the flop.

In this specific situations you need something very strong to play. Effective stacks preclude any fishing for good flops, you need straight fat value. Really, just the occasional hand you could have raised the first time around and didn't should be in play. Something like QQ+/AK/AQs is really it. Depending on SB possibly with a few 4 bet bluffs thrown in.

So GTO says you should continue on the Cutoff after the SB 3-bets you with ALL your pairs down to 44, AND all your suited aces, AND most of your suited connectors, down to 65s.

Now, some caveats: that’s the range for if YOU’d open-raised, and also it’s assuming the SB only raised 4x your bet, not 5x. (And bigger: it’s not taking into account that LLSNL players 3-bet way less than they should.) So that’s why the continue range seems so impossibly large—calling this with T8s or 55 seems like lighting money on fire to me and I would never do it.

I suspect using *actual* LLSNL 3-betting ranges, and factoring in the 5x-sizing you were facing, that 88 emerges closer to a fold. But I can’t imagine either decision is *too* bad in terms of EV.

Edit: Opener was CO and Hero was BTN. Anyone know why it won’t let me go back and edit the thread?

I'm a noob, but generally why are you just calling on the button with pockets eights?

What are you hoping for other than flopping a set? The CO usually only has weak holdings while raising from a stealing position, so it's unlikely you'll stack them, which you need to do when set-mining or it's not profitable. Also, when the flop comes, do you plan to just float the flop and then fold to overcards when likely the higher turn or river comes? Maybe you'll float flop to steal on turn and river or just hope it goes check all the way down. All this is to suggest the villain is competent. It just seems like as the board plays out that you're just hoping to win by showdown, right? The only hand you can really play aggressively for non-showdown is with a set and that ain't getting paid off.

Because of this, I think on the button this has to be a 3-bet or fold. Also, calling here just begs one of the blinds to squeeze, so I'm not surprised you're in this situation and just feeling weird about folding. Does anyone else disagree with me on this?

I would think you'd want to play your 88 & KQs the same as your AA & KK in this spot. Otherwise, you're super vulnerable to being squeezed. With position, 3-betting seems better.

I think 88 can be played as a flat or a 3bet CO vs Btn. You do not need to flop a set with 88 to win the pot (especially when playing against the type of passive opponents that populate low stakes live poker), and it is much easier to navigate yourself to a cheap showdown when you are in position. I can't imagine ever folding 88 OTB facing a single open raise from the cut-off. Personally, I don't see a ton of light squeezes in the games I play live.

OP, I think you can continue with 88 facing this 3bet if the original raiser also calls. Once the original raiser folds, you should fold as well. Your hand looks like exactly what it is if you flat twice here. The necessary implied odds of hitting a set aren't there and villain is going to be able to put a ton of pressure on you even if he doesn't flop a strong hand.

You’re modeling a situation (hero opens CO, SB 3-bets 4x) that’s very far off what actually happened (CO opened 5x, hero CC BU, SB 3bet 5x) and more importantly you use an opening range for CO that’s nowhere near what the actual opening range is. How do I know the latter without knowing which range you used? Because the continuation range you list includes hands that “a very tight player” wouldn’t even open from the CO.

There’s a GTO solution if you start at step 1 (CO opening) and one that starts at step 6 (hero facing the 3bet) but for the latter you have to input what actually happened in steps 1-5. If you use what should have happened in steps 1-5 instead, you get to a result that might do more harm than good.

There is a time limit on how long your allowed to go back and edit posts.

CO was described as very tight, his range will still be pretty strong. If he is a typical tight passive type calling mostly to set mine works. Against a good player you are right that mostly folding would be best.

Depends on table dynamics.

Most 1/2 live players never squeeze. So we aren't usually worried about that. However, in this case you know the SB is a good player. So he's likely playing 3! or fold from the SB. So a 3! for you on BTN would have likely run him off.


Also, if you're going to call $125 pre and then fold when theres a rainbow with two overcards then you should either 4b bluff (wouldn't work as it wouldn't make sense to flat and then back raise), or just fold.

That is a clear fold spot. If the amount of money you have to put in the pot with a pocket pair is less than 12x or more conservatively 15x of what is inthe pot plus what your opponent has left in his stack. So he puts in $100 more for you to call, there needs to be around $1500 in the pot and his remaining stack before you call the bet to be plus EV.

If he is a villain capable of squeezing with worse PPs then you can peel a little lighter.

We are OOP with a very capped range against an experienced player who 3! and knows we are capped.

Fold

But, on similar topic...... if you're check folding a J93r, what was our reason to call? Flopping a set or a 7 high board? Very unlikely on either most of the time.

I don't think any line here makes sense except folding. You can't turn 88 into a 4! bluff as V should easily sniff that out unless he has absolute air.


And, if V is fairly experienced, lets say he has AA.

You called a $25, then flatted $125.


How willing is V to stack off on a T83, K82, 832, etc etc boards?? You will be playing your had pretty face up that its 2p+ when you flat both raises and then want to shove a bunch of money in later.

Hero is the least OOP he can be (on the button) and it's extremely dangerous to assume a low stakes live player has a "very capped range" preflop. Way too many threads around here where people flat AA/KK preflop.