Hero:
-Mostly a 20/40 limit player but trying to have been switch to NL.
-Shown premium cards only. Viewed as nittiest of the nit. Played 3 hands so far in about 2 hours. Doubled up twice my max buy in of $300 and sitting with about $1200.

Villian:
-Old Asian guy. Plays straight forward. Never bluffs (or doesn't bluff enough). Doesn't value bet with strong holdings (2 pair or better) when scary card hits on the board. He made the draw when he does bet out when the scary card comes. Just knocked another huge stack with a cooler (set over set) and he has the hero well covered.

Villain opens to $20 in MP, Hero looks down at two red kings OTB and 3! to $40. Villain 4 bets to $100. Hero 5 bets fairly quickly to $250 (Acting to make the villain think that I might be just splashing around and trying to gambling with AKs here or push off TT, JJ) Villain shoves. Hero?

Anyone like the fold here? He knows I'm a nit so he could be shoving with a lot worse but then again, he rarely bluffs.

OR plan B. Just call the villains 4bet and see the flop? Fold A board? If I call the 4 bet and see an T high board. Am I calling down all 3 streets as long as J, Q, A doesn't hit on the turn and river? Assuming the villain would bet about $150 on the flop after I call his 4 bet preflop. Pot would be $500 by the turn and then $300 bet on the turn. Call that then $1100 pot and I would be calling a shove on the river. Wouldn't this essentially be the same thing as calling the shove preflop?

Your discussion of his post-flop tendencies are kind of irrelevant this hand, which is being decided preflop. How does he play pre-flop? How much does he raise from certain positions with certain hands? How often does he 3-bet, and with what? I've played with people who will only 3-bet AA, and others who will play AA super passively and strong pre-flop action is almost always either JJ or QQ.

Timing tells may also be relevant. An old nitty player shoving immediately in response to a 3-bet or 4-bet, usually in a controlled non-splashy way (maybe irrelevant, but I see it all the time), is super high confidence and usually KK/AA.

With the information you've given I think no, you can't fold. Or fold, but then get up and leave or at least go have a talk with yourself. If you're not comfortable playing deep then you should either leave once you're beyond your comfort zone (I don't think there's anything really wrong with that, though it obviously is limiting), or have planned out strategies to make yourself comfortable playing deep and be working on improving your game.

I can fold here (maybe -- I might do the wrong thing and call, but I wouldn't be here).

Why on earth did you just min-raise with the 3bet?

I would have called the $100 and gone from there, but your min-raise has messed up my thinking on this hand.

Time to fold.

ship it, bink your K, point and laugh at AA, easy game

seriously, your 240 bb deep, if your not comfortable playing that (nothing wrong with that), call the 4 bet

AP, folding to a 6bet shove with anything other than AA is probably +EV

Folding KK PF sucks so bad but in all the games I've played I've never seen anyone 5!/6! Anything but AA at a live 1/2-2/5 table. I know it's hard to fold but I think I fold to the shove for sure. I'm probably even considering it when he 4! Because you have a super tight image and he's still not letting up.

Da ****.. I'm so confused. I thought people said never fold KK preflop. WTF people, make up your minds!! If we're allowed to fold KK preflop, then when an asian nit 6 bet shoves us, then this is the spot to fold KK, do it face up hoping he shows you AA, if he starts to mucks, say outloud, "$25 to see your hand", after he shows you AA, consider yourself a god player and don't be scared, if he has AK, K, QQ or JJ, you're an idiot and should never played scared.

If we're not allowed to fold KK, then call.

BTW, I'm calling this. Then again I'm not scared money and thinks villain can have QQ, KK, AK and AA. (6+1+8)/(6+1+8+6). I still feel we're a 71% favorite. Hell, villain might even show JJ, you said you're self you're trying to portray an image of splashing around chips.

Fold pre.

Seriously though. If this guy plays straight forward he is not six betting QQ/AK

3b bigger, just flat the 4b, as played I fold pretty quickly.

wat???

you really see lots of people 6betting JJ, QQ and AK???

being scared money has nothing to do with this. we're up against 6 combos of AA and 1 combo of KK

those are not good odds.

and you don't fold pre with 100bb, this is 240bb. big big difference

I don't think I've ever seen a 6 bet pre-flop before. 3 bet sizing is bad and I don't like the 5 bet. We have a very tight image, we've basically turned our hand face up and now V is telling us he wants to get it in.

Thankfully his 4 bet sizing was bad, so we had a chance to call and play poker. As played this is a snap fold.

Edit: I would need significant history of V way overplaying a hand pf to justify a call here.

"Old Asian guy. Plays straight forward. Never bluffs" just 4bet (then 6 Bet shipped) over the 5 bet of a guy "Viewed as nittiest of the nit" who "Played 3 hands so far in about 2 hours".

Doubt he has QQ.

I too would 3 bet larger. As for the 5 bet... think about what you wrote:

We have no idea what this looked like. Most acting tells are very bad IME. But we can't know if you somehow induced a spazz with QQ but that is exactly what you think you were trying to do and you were right there at the table. We are reading about it on the internet.

I can only tell you that in my games 4 bets are commonly KK and AA. Because of this you rarely see a 5 bet that's anything but AA. About a year ago I snapped a 5 bet with KK and the guy had AQ. But he was a guy I know was capable of making that move.

Villain is repping AA and AA only. He's not over-valueing QQ here. He eiter has what he is repping or he is turning his hand (whatever it is) into a bluff. You said he never bluffs so... FOLD.

+1

I would have normally raised to $55-70 but I min-raised for a couple of reasons.

-I wanted to see the true strength of his hand as he plays straight forward. (Most likely would only call the min raise with medium PP, AJs, AQs, maybe AKs) and my hand would be better to play in position. (Say Q high flop, I would take him to value town as I would be putting him on AQ, KQ)

-I wanted him to come over the top so I could 5bet (well, this obviously backfired) At this point, I want him to 4 bet with JJ,QQ. Little did I know, he would 6 bet.

Given description and reads, why are you not taking a flop and flat the 4bet and play in position. Seems like the ideal villain to do so. We are likely folding out hands that we beat if we 5bet and we'll hate life we need to 5bet/Fold.

As played, as mentioned, I'm not sure how many old live players are 6betting anything less than AA/KK tbh.

Nit on nit violence...

[ x ] Folds KK preflop

I wonder what V had here but Dan Harrington says he is not good enough to fold KK pre, so was he wrong or just not "there yet" with hand/player reads as today's poker community? Im curious about this?

I fold here too if I were ever graced with that stack at 3/5. I prolly flat the 4 bet and play poker with KK there too. But I am nittiest ever...

Why are you playing like a super nit? Usually card-dead TAG's can find 5-6 playable hands in 2 hours; so are you kind of afraid of the limits at $2/5? Why not play a hundred hours at $1/2 NL so you can get a feel for no-limit poker as well as practicing and applying some no-limit concepts that you really don't encounter at limit poker.

As played, I'm calling the 4! and playing some post-flop poker. I understand your thought process with the min 3b! but I would make it $70 here. You are giving V super juicy odds for him to flat the 3b! and even though he will most likely call with a wide portion of his range, you are inviting him to flat with ATC making it that much harder to play post-flop poker. As played I fold here...

Players aren't that good at LLSNL, I don't see how there's only one hand in the villain's 6 bet shove range. He has one hand, one hand!? He might look at this young kid and think he's good GIAI with his JJ+ overpair or AK.

i agree players arent good at LLSNL, but bad players tend to play their best preflop because they play preflop the most.... now we're in a 6 bet pot. how you give him a range including JJ and QQ is beyond me. maybe guys play looser in FL, but in NJ/PA, this is basically AA every time, with the rare exception it is the other KK - as exemplified in this thread, most people can't seem to fold KK pre - despite the fact we are 240bb deep.

if this is 100bb deep, and you get 4bet, sling it in with a 5bet, i completely agree. i'm only folding KK to the nittiest players 100bb deep. but once you start getting 200+bb deep, its a different story. this old asain guy probably isnt a pro from his description, so he's not thinking in BB, he's thinking in $$, and 1k+$ is a BIG bet in rec players eyes, you think he's shoveling money in the pot with JJ???

this thread has entirely too much "i hazzzz KK, i never fold KK pre" and not enough thought process about why we're being 6bet shoved on by a

you all are more than welcome to light your remaining 1k on fire, just please also do it when i 6bet shove on you...

/end rant

This is the spot where you can fold Kk. You are beat. 100bb or less, gii. 240bb? Fold.
Min raise 3! really skews action. I really don't like that play. I'd either flat for deception or put in a real 3!
Once V 4!, I'd call and then look to play pot control unless K flops. Once he four bets, AA is a huge part of his range, even if you think you induced a spazz.
Once he 6!, all he can have is AA.

I don't understand the thought process though. You min raised to induce a 4!
You quickly 5! to appear splashy.
I don't think the reasoning behind either of those plays makes sense. You just don't have enough control over opponents to make this work and this fancy play has no put you in a spot where you're confused.
Straight forward play typically wins the most money against most rec low limit fish.

I am just not used to the fact that you are losing 200 some odd BB or more in one hand. I have enough for even $40/80 but I just play 20/40 the most. I definitely do agree with you that my min 3 bet really messed things up.

Had he He started out with his initial max buy-in of $300 (60BB) we wouldn't have gotten to 6 bet, even a 5 bet in this matter and I would just called his ALL IN. Deep stack poker is something I need to learn. I just hope I could make the switch to NL without denting my roll too much.

"Let's keep raising until we're beat, and then hero fold."

Applies to NL as it does to LHE.

Also $40 is not a minimum raise, $35 is. And don't 3-bet to $40 unless you're gonna do it with your entire 3-betting range.

3-bet more, and call the 4-bet. This isn't LHE where you can be pretty sure he has AA but call 3x anyway and only lose $100.

Imo, don't play so deep while you make the transition. Playing shorter is much easier and it won't hurt as much when you get stacked. Eventually, you need to learn to play deep but you don't need to learn it right now.