Hi all this is 2 hands I played I still wonder what is best play.
hero is losing in this session after an early cooler so is perceived as tight but active and capable of some moves


1) I open JJ red in LP; i raise to 18; 3 callers; including
Loose aggressive SB; Tag BB et Limper MP. Around 580 stack
flop 9h7s4s; around 72 in pot

checked to me I bet 42 in 72
LAG in SB call 42; TAG bb x raise to 162; MP limper call

At this stage I put LAG on any draw; 9; 7; and TAG on set/combo draw/pair + FD

I call ;
LAG called: which change my perception and I put him on possible draws as well ; TAG

pot 558

turn 7c

LAG checks;
TAG bets 150 leaving 240 behind

hero?

only possible combo of 97s is 9d7d; 3 combos of 99 ; 1 of 77; 3 of 44; 1 each of 9s8s 9sTs Js9s or As9s

LAG unlikely has a set or 97s here;;he should have a naked high fd most of time as he mostly jam flop with pair+fd or combo draw


2) Around 573 effective

3/3/6 (mississipi straddle)

hero opens KsQs utg to 33

5 callers pot 198

flop 2h3s4h;; hero elected to check :

should we always cbet on this flop 6 ways??? checked around

turn 9s;

should we check always after checking the flop or can we rep delayed cbet with overpair?
if we bet; should we bet 130 (leaving 410 behind si if there is one caller ; pot would be 450 ish and it leaves me with a psb shove river)
can we overbet ie 260 in 198 or can we overshove here?

hero bets 130 in 198
utg +2 omc calls (OMC already saw hero in the past check raising flop then 4betting all in flop with mid pair +FD against his TPTK 3bet on a drawy flop)

river 5h; pot 458
hero?

I would fold JJ to a raise OTF, don't want to play a huge pot with just a middling overpair and slim prospects for improvement.

Never cbetting without a strong hand or strong draw when there is so many callers, very little fold equity. OTT I would check and draw if given favorable odds, not a good spot to semibluff even with a decent draw. As play check/folding OTR

Hand 1 I fold flop to this action. We bet, one caller, one raiser, one flat call of the raise - I think this is a trivial fold TBH.

Hand 2 We missed, no I am not cbetting 6 ways OOP on a wet board when I miss the flop. I'd bet HU in position a lot of the time. AP I check turn because 1 bet probably won't take it down and then we mostly have to give up OTR. AP I give up on the river.

Grunch.

Hand one: I would c bet $25. As played I would just fold to the raise. I don't expect BB to be playing his draws aggressively, unless it's a combo draw or pair + draw.

I fold turn. I get that his value hands are cut down with this card, but it really doesn't matter considering the population's tendencies.

FWIW, based off of this hand, it seems you have mis labeled SB as LAG, when he's probably more passive. Doing this could cost you later on.

Hand two: You should never be c betting here six ways. Even if you flopped a FD on this board it's a bad idea. There's almost zero fold equity six ways.

I didn't even read the whole hand before I commented on the flop...You're going to want to check the turn for the same reason I mentioned on the top - there's almost zero fold equity six ways. Think about it this way - we have K high and if we bet we are almost certain to get called; there is no logic for betting.

I wouldn't bluff the river, either. That's just not how money is made in these games.

H1:

I'm not a fan of the preflop result (creating a multiway pot offering 3 opponents awesome 35+ IO while at the same time creating a middling SPR of ~8 where stacks are now trivially in play having only gotten in 3% of our stack preflop when we likely had the best hand). So I'd either (a) raise way more, (b) raise way less (to create a more manageable higher SPR) or even consider overlimping in LP (where we either create a very manageable high SPR in a limped pot or get to limp/reraise to setup a trivial very small SPR).

I'm also betting the flop and really hoping this just ends the hand or otherwise commitment issues (when we don't want to be committed) will start arising (i.e. why I'm not a huge fan of the preflop result).

I fold to the check/raise. You've said yourself we're either crushed or ~flipping so it's not a great spot to continue. Plus with all this action it may be less likely he check/raises his draws (he doesn't 100% of the time like he does with his crushing hands). On top of that if we're behind then our outs are very dirty especially with the obvious drawing player still in the hand (Js completes a flush, and Jx completes OESD T8). If we're not prepared to bet/fold this flop then we'd be better off checking back the flop and just attempting to get to showdown, imo.

Notice how on the turn we only have a 70% PSB left. So even though we are playing "deep" at 193bb, preflop has setup a situation where we're not really as deep as we think we are, which is kinda gross when we only have one pair. This is why I constantly think preflop needs a lot more consideration.

Anyhoo, I don't get to the turn but I fold it. It's just so unlikely that he's still continuing into multiple opponents (ETA: Wow, originally thought he was betting into "just" 2 opponents, and now realize that it is 3 opponents, that's *incredibly* strong) with an incredibly callable bet (it simply looks like boat+ attempting to easily play for stacks).

Gsetupbetterspots,imoG

H2:

Preflop I basically echo my H1 comments above. We offered 5 opponents fairly juicy IO of 22+, which ain't great when we'll have to stack off 100% of the time postflop with TP (that could even still easily be dominated) thanks to the super small SPR. We're raising blind OOP not having any clue what anyone else has and getting our huge stack involved, all thanks to going after a piddly $12 in the middle (which makes zero sense to me). I would just limp in and see what happens.

Trivial check/fold on the flop this multiway for me.

No one is believing we just checked this flop with an overpair, so I doubt we have any FE on the turn itself (so you better be prepared to shove the river UI if you're taking this route). I check and evaluate whether I think a call will be profitable.

Not a horrendous river card to bluff. We can credibly rep the Ace straight, and possibly even the flush (although it is possible he's made these hands we're repping). But a middle pair (he doesn't have better, he would have raised those on the turn) will have a tough time calling a bet. We probably don't need to shove and could get a away with a large 1/2 PSB (which would still be a very painful call thanks to the large $$$).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Preflop is fine in both cases.

Hand 1 is tunnel vision. What about the dude who called your initial bet? What about the dude who cold called a check raise? You realize they’re in the hand as well, right? You have 3 guys willing to put big money in the pot against you, so what are you hoping for? They all have draws?

Hand 2: preflop fine. Flop is standard, c-betting this board is suicide. Doesn’t seem like a bad hand to double barrel off too, and I’d play a hand like Kings the exact same way here.

On river you can maybe exploitatively not go all in as a bluff, since I think all of his straights and flushes are going to call near 100%, and lesser hands fold near 100%. So I’d bet just enough to where he won’t just look at the bet and the size of the pot and throw the money in with TT


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It’s really getting old but this is horrible advice. Again. You realize you offer them better IO by limping, right? And why does OP have to stack off top pair 5 ways? And why is it always a bad thing?



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Grunch:
H1: I fold flop here, we are very unlikely too improve, we are going to see a bad turn card way too often, villains are overlapping in range quite a bit, meaning they are unlikely to all be on a draw. We are very likely to be both an equity dog vs their combined ranges, as well as an actual dog vs one of them.

AP, this is probably the best turn card in the deck, doesn't change anything other than minimizing the combo's that beat us. The fact that we got the best card possible and the decision is still close probably should tell you the flop call isn't great. I probably just jam it in now to protect, and hope we don't get snapped.

H2:
Betting 130 seems the worst of the options. We don't rep much, nobody in LLSNL is gonna think you checked an overpair on this drawy board and i'd expect 66-88 to bet often on the flop. So we are only folding out Ax without the FD... Betting 260 looks even more random and bluffy, but we fold out some Asxs or maybe even 9x, which is obviously good.

But really I think we should x/evaluate this turn, mostly calling. Depending on sizing and how many players continue i could find a nit-fold sometimes also.

River should be a clear give up, OMC is unlikely to bet his hearts on the flop, sets and other slowplays fill up on the river, and we block a bunch of his missed spades. Yes we lose to some Ax, or even 9x that might fold river, but ces't la vie.

This is at least the second time you mentioned we offer better IO by limping.

When we raise, we just created a lol SPR 2.7 pot. Seriously, good luck getting away from your TP. There will perhaps be some boards / action / etc. that you'll be able to get away, but most of the time you'll have an extremely difficult time not getting committed. And in attempting to straddle that line of committing / not-committing you'll often make another major error: offering great odds for worse hands to continue in a hugenormous pot where you're ahead. 5 opponents got 22:1+ IO; no one made much of a big mistake preflop with their speculative hands, and so long as they're not completely moronic postflop they should do ok. The more moronic your opponents are (hurp durping off postflop with any pair extremely multiway against the preflop raiser who continues into the world) then the less of a worry this will be (I'll let you decide who your opponents are).

If it happens to limp 6ways, the SPR will be a huge 16. There will need to be 4 or 5 postflop bets in order to get in stacks. I certainly hope we're not that terrible where that's our plan with TP. And meanwhile we have 3 postflop streets of runout / action / hand reading where we can make good decisions, instead of blindly facing commitment decisions on the flop like we do in the raised case. In a sense, you give the illusion of offering more IO, but in reality you don't (cuz you're never stacking off or even close to it with your one pair hands).

Gbutyoucandowhatyouwant,Idon'tcareG

I'm not clear on why our goal has to be to get away from TP2K in bloated pots.

Also not clear on why trying to engineer particular SPR sizes creates more EV than fat value raises.

This is in response to the question above regarding "why does OP have to stack off with TP 5ways" (are you two in disagreement on this?). I'll let you decide how well you're going to do overall stacking off with TP (that doesn't even have TK no less) against the world having offered everyone awesome IO preflop. Again, as I mentioned above, this isn't as much of a concern if you're at a moron filled table who are getting in their stacks against you postflop with lol hands; the less of that there is, the more this ain't a particularly awesome spot.

GbutI'malwaysoutvotedonthis,soasyouwereG

No comments on hands, but if you played these two hands like this, you don't have a good idea of how your are perceived..."tight but active and capable of some moves". Tight players don't spew off their stack with an medium high overpair against three opponents. That's what calling stations do. And tight players don't come in for a big raise UTG with KQ.. if you are perceived as tight, you're not getting 5 callers for a healthy preflop raise...unless the deck has hit everyone preflop, which based on this board, it didn't.

https://upswingpoker.com/implied-odds-poker-strategy/]heres some math for you[/URL]. But the smaller your betting amounts, the larger potential value $X is. Which means more implied odds, because you need less probability of winning to justify continuing. You address that by: charging people.

Your logic is just so bad and contrived that I’m shocked more people don’t jump down your throat for it. Why are you somehow the only one making “big mistakes” postflop in the first example but not in the second? Why do you not want to stack off TPGK on a board like Q73 when it’s hard to beat KQ? That’s insanely profitable. That’s literally how micro stakes crushers online achieve monster win rates. I’m happy to bet twice in most situations to bet twice and try to stack the fish who played QTo because of “lol meaningless bb preflop”

And in reference to the above link, you totally throw away the numerator like it doesn’t exist. Who cares if in your ideal situation, you don’t get stacked if you flop TPGK and it’s no good? You still lose the same proportion of money as you stand to win. Actually, because you deliberately engineered a three street hand, you stand the chance to lose more relative to what you can win. Plus you’re more likely to fold the winner, a consideration you seem to forget

So why not post your own hands for critique? Instead of strawman arguments, we can discuss real situations.

Anyway, I’m done hijacking this thread. Don’t open limp OP


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