The setting is my cigar club game - for those of you who haven't read previous threads on this game, it's a wild $.25/50 $40 max buy in game that gets crazier and crazier as the night progresses. Most opponents are super loose passive, with a few spewers and a couple of decent players intermixed. An average PF raise is $4.

Tonight, I have been playing TAG and winning. Based on advice here at 2+2, I have stopped playing LAG in this game. (thanks guys, I know I was a PITA in the other thread. slow learner :/ )

The only hand I have shown down was a doubleup with QQ, where I reraised a $4 open to $15 preflop, got two callers, and shoved on a 9 high flop. OESD called me and missed.

I won another medium sized pot on the flop with QQ, but no one knew I had it.

We're about 90 minutes into the game, and my image, again, is noticeably tight compared to my usual style, to the degree that I have heard a few comments on it.


(Stack sizes approximate)

SB: $80 - Straightforward player, no tricks, bets when he has it, checks when he's unsure. Capable of bad laydowns.
BB: $40 - Capable player, usually wins, but is prone to stack off on draws too loosely
UTG: $40
MP: $50
CU: $50
Hero: $95

UTG limps. Hero raises to $5 with QQ. SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Pot: $20

Flop: KJ6

SB slowchecks, BB checks but looks interested...shoots me a glance. I suspect he has a piece of this flop, but he is not excited about it, otherwise he'd bet. UTG folds to the nobet. I check, planning to bet any turn for value, while keeping the pot small here. I'm pretty sure SB and BB like this flop, but I don't know if it's the K or if it's SD/FD potential.

Turn: 10

Pot: $20

SB leads out for $12. BB flats (definitely a draw for him, based on his typical betting patterns). Hero flats, as I now have OESD and second pair.

I now suspect SB has 2 pair, but a straight is possible.

Pot: $56

River: 6

SB checks, which immediately tells me he didn't like this card. Why?
BB checks as well, with only $8 left.

I think this is a good opportunity to shove. I believe I can fold out the SB if he has KT or even sometimes a straight - he's unlikely to stack off for over 100bb without a boat here or at least the nut straight, which I do not put him on due to his river check. I don't know where BB is, but I suspect a busted flush draw or busted straight draw with a pair, something like QT. If he has me beat, I am only risking $8 against him by shoving, and I think he calls with less than QQ, as the pot is so big in relation to his stack.

Hero shoves for $63 effective, SB tank folds, BB calls, shows AJ. Hero takes down $62 pot. SB says he folded JT, figured I must have had the boat.

I won the pot, but I am unsure about how I played it. Each street presented several options, and I am not confident that I picked the best option each time.

Here are my questions on this hand:

1. Flop: Check to control potsize correct here?
2. Turn: Call correct against villain's ranges with OESD and 2nd pair?
3. River: Spewy or smart? Should I have checked it down, bet less, or was the shove +EV? Why?

Thanks to all for comments - and thanks again for straightening me out on how best to approach this game, it's been working well so far

Fouled deck.

im assuming BB had AJo?? Jd was on the flop

i think flop check back is standard vs. 3 opponents. Obv turn call with OESD is Obv.

River is most interesting street. I think i usually just check it down here. Shoving to get people to fold top pairs in a crazy .25/.50 is usually unwise.

also, mbn to be dealt QQ so often

I corrected; sorry. The 6 was a diamond, not the J.

Makes up for the fact that I haven't seen AA in a month :/

Given your read that no one bet the flop, you are likely to be far ahead on the flop.

I think you need to c-bet the flop to get value from draws. I think giving a free card is not something to do.

On the turn, if you are going to call I think you may as well shove. How likely are you to fold on the river as played? At a crazy game draws will probably call you. At low limits players on a draw will shoot out a blocking bet and people call. This allows them to see another card cheap. If I think they are blocking on a draw I want to pound them with a raise. That is my interpretation of the $12 bet.

I'm not sure about the river shove. It seems a little like spew because I don't see worse calling from SB. BB is calling most of the time any way. So a smaller bet may have won you more.

I think a little more aggression would have won you more.

Here's why I was unsure about this.

If I have one opponent on a FD, then I really only have 6 outs, not 8 here. If one of my opponents already has the low end of the straight, I only have 4 outs to a split (3 if the other opponent has the FD). I strongly discount the possibility of being up against the nut straight, based on how I know these guys would usually bet it here, but I can't discount it 100%.

There is the possibility I am ahead though too...SB could be betting QT, QJ here, or a FD. Although, he could be betting KQ as well, leaving me behind and drawing only to a split.

I think if I bet the flop here, SB either calls or folds. If he folds, I get nothing from him. If he calls, he is going to bet a lot more on the turn when he hits his 2p. What do I do if the FD checkraises for value?

I'd like more information here before I commit too strongly. But, I was unsure about this which is why I posted, so maybe you're right.

If a diamond hits and I face a shove? Very. If I miss the SD and SB shoves? Very. I'm not stacking off here with second pair unless I smell weakness, and am the one doing the shoving.

I think shoving the turn has precisely zero FE. I would think folding the turn would be more correct, given the limited number of outs I might have.

The key thing you said is you were pretty sure you were ahead on the flop. After reading most of your posts in the past two months, I am impressed that you have good read-abilities in live games. So the K is not out there.

In an insane game draws call just about anything. I don't think we can give them free cards. You minimize losses by playing more conservatively, but you also minimize your win.

Given stack sizes if you bet $17 on the flop you probably get a fold from SB and a call/shove from BB. If they both call you are pretty much getting it all in on the turn. I'm ok with that.

If SB shoves over your bet and you think he plays draws like that then I'm cool with calling. If he never plays draws like that then I may b/f on the flop.

I believe that you played the hand perfect until the river. You checked the flop, called the turn, now shoved the river?? And you really think these loose calling players are going to fold aq,q9, kt or kj?? The 6 on the river is a complete blank for any k so there is no reason for either player to not valuebet their king so I believe that a bet f 18-20 is much better than a shove to try and get a hero from a jack or jackten. The other thing I recommend is somehow to not allow them to think you have turned into a nit. If any o these players think then they will stop paying you off when you only show up with the nuts. Tight will make a profit but you still want to look like you are willing to gamble.

Very good points - although, the SB is not a loose caller after the flop, only preflop. He does a good job of convincing himself he got drawn out on. He's not folding AQ, but Q9 or a K? Very likely. His river check smacks of fear to me - but you make a good point about getting the JT hero call, there's value there.

I'm not too worried about them thinking me too nitty. Even with my 10bb raise preflop, after a comment about how tight I am playing, I got 3 callers in a 6 handed game. I still shoved with second pair on a straight/boat board, LOL. But I am playing less hands, and noticeably so.

But I will definitely watch for that now that you mention it. If I see people making too many big laydowns against me, I'll punish them for it until I get caught.

Well, I have what is known as the wheel... Umm, its got earthy tones, a smooth draw, enough kick to win me the Hi and the Low

Preflop: nice
Flop: good check IMO. Especially with the reads you had
Turn: good call, you under-repped your hand on the flop so now this is a clear call
River: I am not sure I like it. Don't think you can fold out Kx. I think I bet 1/3 pot to get value from Jx or check depending on player types. With these types I am thinking a milking bet works and never gets bluff raised.

*Grunch
Looks fine except I'm checking OTR.

Heh. I think about that every time I play there.

OK, so we all agree river bet was spewy then?

I prefer betting flop and checking turn against players who will play straightforward and we are never getting check-raised by draws.

River is FPS spew.

Even against a player who routinely makes big, incorrect laydowns?