Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
$.25/.50/1 NL KK on a 9-3-3-2 Board with 3 Clubs $.25/.50/1 NL KK on a 9-3-3-2 Board with 3 Clubs

01-07-2014 , 06:48 PM
I've been pondering a hand that I played about a week ago and whether or not I made the right decision on the turn. Sadly, the mere fact that I am posting it will spoil the results, but I would like to know whether I played it right and got unlucky or played it badly.

Hero (BB): Late 20s, first time at this particular home game and don't really know anyone. Have been playing for 4 hours so far and folding a lot more than most of the other players in the game, which I've discovered usually gets me labeled as a tight player pretty quickly based on other games.

Villain (MP): Somewhere in his late-40s to early-50s. Not much of a read on him because he arrived late and had only been playing for an hour or so at this point.

Key Hand: About 20 minutes prior to this hand, the Villain had re-reraised a pot pre-flop from $20 to $60 with AA against the host of the game. My general impression of the villain based on this hand and other smaller hands was that he played was that he did not slowplay his hands, but I had a very small sample size to work with.

Game is 8-handed at this point, with $0.25/$0.50 blinds and the $1 straddle is on.

Player 1 (SB)
Hero (BB - $140): KK
Player 2 (Straddle)
Player 3
Villain (About $200)
Player 4
Player 5
Player 6 (Button)

This may not be exact, but I believe Player 3 called the straddle, Villain raised to $5 or $6, and everyone folded around to me.

Hero ($140): Raises to $20 ($14-$15 more). Figured it was about a pot-size bet. I had been raising a lot in the last 20 or so hand and was on a mini-rush, but this was my first or second re-raise preflop of the night.

Villain ($200): Calls $14-$15.

Flop ($42.25): 233
Hero ($120): Bets $30
Villain ($180): Calls $30

Turn ($102.25): 9
Hero ($90): What should the hero do now?

Spoiler:
My thinking was, having just seen the villain re-raise $60 preflop with AA, that he didn't have it again because he wouldn't have just called preflop. So the range I put him on was either a high pocket pair, or AK-AJcc. Since most of his range I thought was the mid-to-high pocket pairs, my biggest concern now is something like JJ or TT with one club (maybe QQ and he was scared of my AA/KK preflop which is why he wouldn't raise). Since I only had less than one pot-size bet left, figuring most of his range was a pocket pair lower than mine, and because only 22, 33, and 99 make full houses (22 and 33 possibly not even in his hand range after the preflop action), I shoved to protect my hand against one club.

Since I've posted this thread in the first place, you've probably assumed correctly that the villain already made his flush AQ, and I missed my four outer.

Was this a unfortunate beat, or was my shove on the turn moronic?
$.25/.50/1 NL KK on a 9-3-3-2 Board with 3 Clubs Quote
01-07-2014 , 06:58 PM
In an ideal world, we would bet an amount that our villain would raise if he had a flush but just call if he didn't. But with these stack sizes and us only having about a PSB left, it is going to bet say $50 and then fold to a raise.

I think I would bet about $40 here. We are going to be in a tough spot if he jams, but my plan would be to call it off as the pot is going to have $180 in it and it will be $50 more to call.

I think jamming here ourselves is a mistake unless we can make him fold out a hand like AA, which he is never going to have here. By just betting $40, we can still get called by JJ/TT/etc type hands in his range.
$.25/.50/1 NL KK on a 9-3-3-2 Board with 3 Clubs Quote
01-07-2014 , 06:58 PM
Nh...ul

His calling range should include a lot of pairs not just flushes (hard to say with no reads). Might bet 55 rather than shove but it doesn't matter
$.25/.50/1 NL KK on a 9-3-3-2 Board with 3 Clubs Quote
01-07-2014 , 07:00 PM
Ok, I just read your spoiler.

Spoiler:
Your thought process here is all wrong. You should be thrilled if villain shows up with TT. That is the exact hand that you want to bet smaller to try to get value from. By shoving, there is a chance that you are only going to get called by hands better than yours and make everything else fold out.
$.25/.50/1 NL KK on a 9-3-3-2 Board with 3 Clubs Quote
01-10-2014 , 12:59 AM
Spoiler:
Yeah, obviously if my opponent folds to a bet, I don't give him a chance to make a mistake.

I think the question comes down to "will my opponent fold the one-card flush draw for $55 but not $90?" The bet has to be at least $45 to give my opponent the improper odds (presuming he's a 77:23 underdog with a pair and a flush draw.) I'm not sure it's as simple as that. There's already $100 in the pot. In a loose $0.50/$1 game with lots of calling, I'm not sure that opponents that would call $55 would not call $90. It wouldn't be 100% of course, but I'm thinking 75%+ of the time, an opponent would call either bet as if they were the same.

I think the other issue that I was thinking is that if I bet $55, and my opponent pushes, am I really going to fold here? The pot would be $247.25, and I'd have to call $35 more. So I basically have 7-to-1 pot odds at that point. I would think there would have to be a 12.5% chance that my opponent would push with QQ or JJ here (with one club) with so much money in the pot figuring that they might as well get it in here since I have so little left, or my opponent would just make a dumb bluff here figuring I'm scared of the clubs. I've seen bluffs in less likely scenarios.

So I am thinking $55 probably would have been the better bet, but I also think I can't fold to a $35 raise either.
$.25/.50/1 NL KK on a 9-3-3-2 Board with 3 Clubs Quote
02-02-2014 , 03:43 AM
I would rather 3bet to $15 pre to keep in his range. As played shove turn and its not even close. You don't want a club to peel on river but more importantly you have the best hand almost always on the turn.
$.25/.50/1 NL KK on a 9-3-3-2 Board with 3 Clubs Quote
02-02-2014 , 03:46 AM
We dont shove turn simply for protection. We're shoving for value and protection is mainly a side benefit and we can't get bluffed if a club peels on river. We don't mind him folding a hand like 8x8c or TxTc which has a lot of equity. And we don't mind him callin with those hands either as he doesn't have correct odds.
$.25/.50/1 NL KK on a 9-3-3-2 Board with 3 Clubs Quote
02-02-2014 , 03:48 AM
18 combos of TT-QQ vs 3 combos of AJcc+. We have the best hand way too often to fold here
$.25/.50/1 NL KK on a 9-3-3-2 Board with 3 Clubs Quote
02-02-2014 , 03:52 AM
If he's always folding worse to a shove, then betting $40 to $50 is best. We're not paying him off if a club hits and we're assuming we're never getting bluffed on river. You don't have to price out his pair+FDs, he will have TT-QQ with no club a lot of the time too and we want to keep those hands in.
$.25/.50/1 NL KK on a 9-3-3-2 Board with 3 Clubs Quote

      
m