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25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two 25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two

11-13-2015 , 11:58 AM
25/25 live cash game, 10 players

hero was on the botton with QT

5 players limped preflop including the hero

the big blind, a tight reg, raised to 175, all the limper called, 6-way pot, pot size 1075

the flop came KQT, checked to hj player, and she shoved 1600 directly, co floded, now to the hero, what should he do?

the stack size of the hero was 7000, the others all folded except the big blind(preflop raiser), who had a stack size of 3500

we don't have much history with the hj player
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-14-2015 , 04:12 AM
fold
-odds are very bad
-you are way behind of his value range (a)
-you are flipping against his semibluffing range (b)
-(a) is a bigger part of his range than (b)
-there are 3 players to act behind you
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-14-2015 , 04:47 AM
you don't have history but do u have any reads?

uh pretty trivial fold imo even giving villain tons of semi-bluffs. need 60%.



in reality your equity is probably way worse since i gave villain a ton of bluffs and there are a bunch of other people in the hand...i would think cause of them you need more than 60%.
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-16-2015 , 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by federigol
fold
-odds are very bad
-you are way behind of his value range (a)
-you are flipping against his semibluffing range (b)
-(a) is a bigger part of his range than (b)
-there are 3 players to act behind you
Thank you very much. Can't agree more
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-16-2015 , 09:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djz
you don't have history but do u have any reads?

uh pretty trivial fold imo even giving villain tons of semi-bluffs. need 60%.



in reality your equity is probably way worse since i gave villain a ton of bluffs and there are a bunch of other people in the hand...i would think cause of them you need more than 60%.
my equity is much worse than i thought, thank you very much
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-16-2015 , 09:51 AM
If this is going to get squeezed a lot pre then I'm fine just folding this as their are a lot of spots, like this one, where we flop good but still can't really continue with the hamd.
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-16-2015 , 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackluoluo
my equity is much worse than i thought, thank you very much
how well did you think you're actually doing there?

can I ask the results of the hand? i think you usually have 8-16% equity here tbh. though you will be drawing dead some of the time.
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-16-2015 , 04:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djz
you don't have history but do u have any reads?

uh pretty trivial fold imo even giving villain tons of semi-bluffs. need 60%.



in reality your equity is probably way worse since i gave villain a ton of bluffs and there are a bunch of other people in the hand...i would think cause of them you need more than 60%.
if there's no future street play possible, you never need more than 50% equity to make a call
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-16-2015 , 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mythrilfox
if there's no future street play possible, you never need more than 50% equity to make a call
yea I probably should've said in my post I was increasing the equity requirement cause of the bunch of players behind. I have no idea how I came to that number of 60%. idk, feels right that you need a bunch more than normal cause of all the other players behind.

hero needs 37% to call shove profitably. it's about the same if he shoves over her too.
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-17-2015 , 03:57 AM
Old boring fold pre
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-17-2015 , 02:07 PM
Def fold pre, but as played pretty sure that's a call.

Without history in live play, how often is an overshove heavily weighted towards value hands? I'm expecting to see way more KJ, QJ, JT and combo draws as opposed to AJ, J9, and TT (assuming TT even limps). The more likely value hand range is strong but vulnerable hands like KT or KQ. Sometimes V might also be shoving semi-bluff hands that aren't necessarily for value but for protection like AT or AK. Seeing what they took to showdown would be very important to note for V
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-17-2015 , 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djz
yea I probably should've said in my post I was increasing the equity requirement cause of the bunch of players behind. I have no idea how I came to that number of 60%. idk, feels right that you need a bunch more than normal cause of all the other players behind.

hero needs 37% to call shove profitably. it's about the same if he shoves over her too.
yeah I forgot the heads-up qualifier
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-19-2015 , 10:54 AM
Definitely never folding this preflop.
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-24-2015 , 03:01 AM
Raise pre. As played trivial decision with no info on vill. Folding is fine but id imagine vill is not some nitpro or nutpedaler so id call.
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-24-2015 , 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Muffin Man
Definitely never folding this preflop.
+1
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-24-2015 , 12:59 PM
fist pump snap call pre

fist pump snap fold flop
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-24-2015 , 01:18 PM
Also, the Villain has not raised pre. That lets us discount AJ, KQ and TT, leaving most of the villain's range as KJ, KT, QJ, JT, QT and spade draws.

Also, did the two out of three players behind you actually folded rather than just showed disinterest (after I presume you were tanking for a while)? If they did indeed fold out of turn, that is some pretty ridiculous (and intolerable) behavior on their part in a large pot in a high stakes game.
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-24-2015 , 04:06 PM
Yeah maybe I've been playing on bovada too long but this doesnt seem like a fold to me at all. Giving some random 35bb fish hands like TT and KQs seems a little silly.

I'm also a little confused on the action, how is only the BB left?
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-24-2015 , 04:08 PM
I call pre and post

That stove range is super super conservative
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-25-2015 , 03:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RosaParks
Yeah maybe I've been playing on bovada too long but this doesnt seem like a fold to me at all. Giving some random 35bb fish hands like TT and KQs seems a little silly.

I'm also a little confused on the action, how is only the BB left?
it's silly to give a random fish KQs/TT but not J2s along with every other gutter+fd? i mean i could have given them any spade draw too but it would've taken too long. also there are a lot of other deep players in the hand. i also didn't give them AJo/J9o which are a lot of combos and likely in range.
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
11-30-2015 , 01:15 AM
I don't get it. Why are people folding?

Pre (raising vs calling) depends on a lot of stuff, but I'm calling flop as played no question.
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote
12-03-2015 , 05:50 PM
Wait, I'm confused. How many people still have live hands after we act? OP claims HJ jams, CO folds, and it's on us, meaning there should be 3 people behind left to act if the pot went 6-ways to the flop. However OP states everyone except BB raiser folded.
25/25 Big dicision on the flop with bottom two Quote

      
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