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25/25/50 NL  - Turn and River Decisions 25/25/50 NL  - Turn and River Decisions

06-03-2023 , 02:17 PM
HERO taking a shot in the big game. 8 handed, with 7 of those players completely unknown to HERO and vice versa. I assume my image will look weak having never played in the game before. To this point during the session, HERO has nearly folded every hand except the two he's opened and won on c-bets.

Even though the game is 30 minutes in, there's been already 3 all-in stack offs, none of which were coolers. Just action out the ying yang.

Straddle is on as V2 just bluff shoved 3k into a $500 pot on the flop and was called (!) by opponent with TPMK that held (V mucked). Thoughts on three decisions that begin on the turn.

OTTH:

Folds to V1 on Button (~20k) who makes it 150 to go. This V has already stacked two opponents with crazy random hands and he's opening nearly every hand and 3-betting an insane %.
HERO (~5.8k eff) in SB raises to 525 with KcJc.
BB folds.
V2 Straddle (rebought to 5k or more) cold calls the 525. Button folds and we're HU with the perceived gambler/station/spot.

Pot: 1225
Flop: Kh-6c-10d

Hero leads out 375. Villain calls quickly.

Pot: 1975
Turn: 9c

HERO decision number 1: ???

In game, HERO waits a beat or two and bets out 800. Villain quickly min-clicks to 1600. Pot is now ballooned to 4375 and hero has a little more than a PSB behind.

HERO decision number 2: ???

In game, HERO calls.

River: 3c

HERO decision number 3: ???
25/25/50 NL  - Turn and River Decisions Quote
06-03-2023 , 03:12 PM
Bigger pre

Decision 1: i’d check

Decision 2: standard just call

Decision 3: V is 5k effective pot is 5175 ( i dont know where you got 4375)

So V has roughly 2.5k left , you have 3.3k which is 60% , you dont have more than psb

I’d just shove, dont want V to x back his 2pairs
25/25/50 NL  - Turn and River Decisions Quote
06-03-2023 , 04:30 PM
I like your line up until river decision and would've played it the same. Agree with go bigger pre (600 at least, but this is not an important thing).

Flop I prefer betting to checking; I don't see any benefits to checking as any hand that cold called your 3b can float vs a small bet unless he's floating total air **** like 54o

Turn I'd bet a bit smaller but again, not very important. There's again a lot of value in betting small to collect from hand's like QTs, JJ, 88, 77. As played vs the minraise I'd always just call

River it's a choice between donk jam and check call. Most posters here I think will advocate for donk jamming as they are afraid of missing value vs xb 2p, KQ, AK xb.

However without any info I think it's strictly better to check river to allow his spazzes like total air AJs, 67s, 77, etc to continue bluffing. Also if he has a a hand that beats AK I think there's still a very high chance he puts you on AK/AA and still shoves his 2p, leaving the only hand you miss out on is KQ (which might not even raise turn).

Donk jamming the river is like a negative freeroll (vs most opponents; obviously vs most LLSNL opponents donk jamming river would be ok, as they would only ever have 2p+ and never a spaz bluff)
25/25/50 NL  - Turn and River Decisions Quote
06-03-2023 , 07:34 PM
Hand is well played. I check dark before the river comes out so he can rep what we have.
25/25/50 NL  - Turn and River Decisions Quote
06-04-2023 , 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe-exotic69

Decision 1: i’d check

Decision 2: standard just call

Decision 3: V is 5k effective pot is 5175 ( i dont know where you got 4375)
So V has roughly 2.5k left , you have 3.3k which is 60% , you dont have more than psb

I’d just shove, dont want V to x back his 2pairs

Decision 1: With the J blocker to the straight and clubs, I don't think ch is a good play here, but if we do take this line, are you advocating for a ch/call turn and ch/call river without improvement?

Decision 2 details:

Pot = 150 + 525 + 25 + 525 + 375 + 375 + 800 + 1600 = 4375
HERO = ~5,800 - 525-375-800 = 4100 (or roughly PSB)
V = ~5,000-525-375-1600= 2500

So V has 57% of PSB remaining though this is a rough estimate and he could have had another few hundred. If we call here like I did, I think we're telling V we're on a draw as any made hand would just rip it now unless we're going meta and want to induce ch/shove on the river. if we hit. But if we don't hit, like say the river is 3d, are we still ch/calling shove OTR?

Decision 3: I don't know whether shoving or allowing V to bluff here is the right play. They might both be good in this particular circumstance, but IMO if I call min-click on the turn, I should be checking nearly everything on river.
25/25/50 NL  - Turn and River Decisions Quote
06-04-2023 , 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarretman
I like your line up until river decision and would've played it the same. Agree with go bigger pre (600 at least, but this is not an important thing).

Flop I prefer betting to checking; I don't see any benefits to checking as any hand that cold called your 3b can float vs a small bet unless he's floating total air **** like 54o

Turn I'd bet a bit smaller but again, not very important. There's again a lot of value in betting small to collect from hand's like QTs, JJ, 88, 77. As played vs the minraise I'd always just call

River it's a choice between donk jam and check call. Most posters here I think will advocate for donk jamming as they are afraid of missing value vs xb 2p, KQ, AK xb.

However without any info I think it's strictly better to check river to allow his spazzes like total air AJs, 67s, 77, etc to continue bluffing. Also if he has a a hand that beats AK I think there's still a very high chance he puts you on AK/AA and still shoves his 2p, leaving the only hand you miss out on is KQ (which might not even raise turn).

Donk jamming the river is like a negative freeroll (vs most opponents; obviously vs most LLSNL opponents donk jamming river would be ok, as they would only ever have 2p+ and never a spaz bluff)
FYI, in game I did end up checking river. I just thought V was more likely to bluff then stack off with a good inferior hand. Obviously could be wrong but didn't know how to play this particular opponent in this spot for these stakes. I even thought about leading a faux blocker bet like 1100 here knowing V has to call.

Thanks for the reply and analysis!
25/25/50 NL  - Turn and River Decisions Quote
06-04-2023 , 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bclouddd
Decision 1: With the J blocker to the straight and clubs, I don't think ch is a good play here, but if we do take this line, are you advocating for a ch/call turn and ch/call river without improvement?

Decision 2 details:

Pot = 150 + 525 + 25 + 525 + 375 + 375 + 800 + 1600 = 4375
HERO = ~5,800 - 525-375-800 = 4100 (or roughly PSB)
V = ~5,000-525-375-1600= 2500

So V has 57% of PSB remaining though this is a rough estimate and he could have had another few hundred. If we call here like I did, I think we're telling V we're on a draw as any made hand would just rip it now unless we're going meta and want to induce ch/shove on the river. if we hit. But if we don't hit, like say the river is 3d, are we still ch/calling shove OTR?

Decision 3: I don't know whether shoving or allowing V to bluff here is the right play. They might both be good in this particular circumstance, but IMO if I call min-click on the turn, I should be checking nearly everything on river.
Ah i see you were counting the pot before you called the extra 800$.

Honestly if river was a brick, i would just check/fold this is why i like checking turn/pot control.

The river shove on my part is exploitative, V has less than 50% psb behind, i think he is very value heavy on the turn but might just do a scared x back on river since clubs came. GTO prefers checking range for sure.
25/25/50 NL  - Turn and River Decisions Quote
06-04-2023 , 02:13 PM
Go at least 4x pre, I like 4.5x. You are out of position.

Flop: I think bet or check is fine, but I really like the idea of checking this hand at a pretty high frequency. In this game, I think small flop cbets are very likely to get called. In this type of game with this type of player, I would expect you to get called pretty often by any pocket pair, flopped pair, flopped gutter/open ender, and there are a lot. Almost all of villain's range pretty much. And if you check turn, you are very likely to face a bet on the turn.

What are you going to do with hands like JJ, QQ? If you bet. You are going to have a lot of very uncomfortable turns and rivers, so it is nice to protect your checking range a bit. That said, your bet is also fine.

Villain is also likely to bet if you check, and you would have a very nice call.

Turn I think both bet and check or okay. Your sizing is not a sizing I use, so I would probably check, but I think you size is fine. I tend to play my turns more as big bet or check unless the turn card is really good for my range, like a K when I was preflop aggressor, then sometimes I use small size, like 33%. I like checking here because I have a very good check call hand vs someone who will bet a lot when checked to and we are behind a lot of his range. QJ, 87, T9, 99 improve, maybe even K9 depending on how wide he is. What he might have for bluffs? AcTc, AcQc, AQ with a club, AJ with a club, and even random spaz hands. While a min raise is weighted towards value, this V may realize if he wants to bluff river, he wants betting lead to precent you from betting river and getting pot committed. You went small enough that he should have some fold equity on river vs some of you range depending on runout.

River vs an aggressive villain I would check. I doubt he checks back value on the river, meaning 2p or better, because he would want a crying call from AK. And this villain may have bluffs. Check call the jam. If somehow he bets less than all in, you jam. Once in a while he will have the nut flush, but obviously you are never not getting it in unless he checks here.

Even if he checks better on river or he ends up winning with nut flush while you were ahead on turn, I wouldn't be results oriented. You have a great bluff catcher with equity on the turn. Not strong enough to 3bet jam for value or weak enough to turn into a bluff.
25/25/50 NL  - Turn and River Decisions Quote
06-04-2023 , 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe-exotic69
Ah i see you were counting the pot before you called the extra 800$.

Honestly if river was a brick, i would just check/fold this is why i like checking turn/pot control.

The river shove on my part is exploitative, V has less than 50% psb behind, i think he is very value heavy on the turn but might just do a scared x back on river since clubs came. GTO prefers checking range for sure.
No I'd imagine GTO solution here would absolutely have leads on river lol
25/25/50 NL  - Turn and River Decisions Quote
06-04-2023 , 05:05 PM
I'd consider flatting pre to keep the action player in the pot, raising risks forcing him out. But he called anyway, maybe because you chose a smaller sizing, so it worked out. If you really don't want to play with the BB, more of a reason to 3!. If BTN is a good player might want to keep the pot small too.

Given previous hand history, I am definitely checking river to let him blast or value own himself. Most Vs are not going to give you much credit for a flush as the 3!ttor, especially if you have a tight shot-taking image which it sounds like you do. You might have like one flush combo, AKcc, assuming you don't 3! suited wheel aces. Your hand is going to look like one pair a lot of the time (AK, AA, maybe KQ), and it's going to be hard for a V stuck not to try to eke out some extra value out of that portion of your range, especially after you check it to him.

I think there is a big risk he finds a fold with his bluffs and weaker made hands against you if you jam. Remember, you are the shot taker to everyone at the table and they probably don't expect you to get out of line. I would prefer a very small block bet to a jam here to get a crying call or induce a bluff raise, but check is best imo.
25/25/50 NL  - Turn and River Decisions Quote
06-05-2023 , 08:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk
I'd consider flatting pre to keep the action player in the pot, raising risks forcing him out. But he called anyway, maybe because you chose a smaller sizing, so it worked out. If you really don't want to play with the BB, more of a reason to 3!. If BTN is a good player might want to keep the pot small too.

Given previous hand history, I am definitely checking river to let him blast or value own himself. Most Vs are not going to give you much credit for a flush as the 3!ttor, especially if you have a tight shot-taking image which it sounds like you do. You might have like one flush combo, AKcc, assuming you don't 3! suited wheel aces. Your hand is going to look like one pair a lot of the time (AK, AA, maybe KQ), and it's going to be hard for a V stuck not to try to eke out some extra value out of that portion of your range, especially after you check it to him.

I think there is a big risk he finds a fold with his bluffs and weaker made hands against you if you jam. Remember, you are the shot taker to everyone at the table and they probably don't expect you to get out of line. I would prefer a very small block bet to a jam here to get a crying call or induce a bluff raise, but check is best imo.
I'm never flatting pre. Though this was a paid timed game and therefore no rake in this particular hand, I'm getting some money in the middle or waiting.

To everyone saying I should have gone higher pre, I meant to. Maths error probably due to nerves or just unfamiliar with the stakes. Had this been 2/5 or 5/10 would have been in the the 4-4.5x range.

I did end up checking the river here hoping 2pr+ or bluffs would continue. Thinking about V's line, I'm probably not afraid of the BDFD as I was the preflop raiser and as many have alluded to, screams TP hands more so than anything else. The block bet did cross my mind though I think it looks stupid strong and this would eliminate his bluffs.

Result coming today
25/25/50 NL  - Turn and River Decisions Quote
06-06-2023 , 03:30 AM
After checking, V checks back. I show my flush and V mucks. I didn't ask him what he had, but v ended up stacking off a couple times in the next hour (-10k probably) so I'm really not sure what to make of the min Raise and how I would play this hand vs him again in the future.
25/25/50 NL  - Turn and River Decisions Quote
06-06-2023 , 03:37 AM
you have to shove river there vs a bad, probably tilting player.
25/25/50 NL  - Turn and River Decisions Quote
06-06-2023 , 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by feel wrath
you have to shove river there vs a bad, probably tilting player.
Easy to say now, but if V didn't have anything, checking was the correct play trying to induce bluff.

I haven't ran anything but I'm guessing solvers are probably splitting their range after turn's b/r/c line oop.

Exploitatively, if I know a player is tilting, I tend to let him hang himself. Might have missed this one though for sure.
25/25/50 NL  - Turn and River Decisions Quote

      
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