Playing 1/2 - 8 or 9 handed

Villain ($550ish): TAG Regular in his 20's. Capable of making plays with marginal hands, generally plays fast and aggressive post flop after he raises, and not afriad of big pots. I have quite a bit of history with him where he has been on the winning side flopping two sets and bluffing me off of one overpair. I'm beginning to see a pattern of his PF bet sizing, where he bests stronger hands higher (18-20) and weaker hands less. While in the hands with me he has shown down Pocket Tens or a set, I have recently seen him get to showdown with J8 suited after raising from LP.

Hero ($450): Villain views me as a competent player.

Action folds to Villain who raises from Hijack to $12. I call in the cutoff with 8c6c.

Flop is Qc5c8s.

I'm fairly certain Villain will C-Bet his entire range here. Villain C-bets $20. Hero raises to $70. Villain quickly 4 bets to $170.

Hero? Easy call or any arguments to just jamming here?

3-bet pre

Can't call. V capable of an oop 4 bet bluff? Doubt it if you have him tag. Don't like this spot. Smells of a 55, 88. You're not drawing to nut flush. Have no problem with your play, but here, I tank fold.

I wouldn't raise the flop this deep. 100BB or under I really like the raise in pos. if we think V has FE and we're okay getting ai if he b/r.

I don't like just calling behind with SC behind a TAG open from the HJ unless you know the blinds are going to come along. Even then I'm not too sure I like it because V is opening fairly light in this spot so if you play a big pot you're certainly behind.

Knowing that V is opening light, I'd raise to something like 40-50 and c-bet pretty much any flop.

As played, it's an awkward stack size to just flat so I think shoving is better than calling.

If he's betting his whole range on the flop I don't like turning your hand into a bluff by raising when you're in position.

With deeper stacks you should probably 3bet pre over calling a lot of the time. But I don't think there's a huge difference.

I agree with just calling in position on the flop. But as played, don't we have to shove here since flatting essentially turns our hand face up not to mention the likelihood he's pushing extremely light in this spot since there is some history? Or, is that spewy?

We don't have direct odds to draw, I think we have Implied odds to call 100. I don't think villain is ever folding after b/3b this flop.

I think jamming is the only play at this point...

having raised the flop isn't the intention to get it all in? he can take the same line with KK/AA which we are marginal favourite against, not to mention if he is tight he may fold as we look incredibly strong. if he calls with AcAx or KcKx we still have 48%
If he is capable of making plays as you say, he could have a flush draw himself which we are ahead of and presumably he is going to fold, Jc10c is also in his range for the same reasons, which we are only 43% against but still not the end of the world, and even worse case scenario he has a set and we still have 30% equity.

once we have raised the flop reopening the betting i am always willing to get it in.

having said all this, if your live game is anything like mine im going to avoid marginal spots like this to find much better ones against the extremely weak fish. so id probably just flat the flop in the first place.(or not call a 6x raise pre)

Getting better than 2.5 to 1 with middle pair and a flush draw. I got 13 outs against his pair and 9 against his unlikely set.

That was my intentions when I saw the flop; I knew I was raising pretty much any bet he made, but I truly wasn't expecting him to reraise me.

A 6x raise in the 1/2 games here is the low end of standard. It's not uncommon for there to be $7-8K on the table.

+1. And a fistpump to boot. I think when you said Tag sees you as competent, he prolly sees you as weak/tight given that your folding overpairs to him. Just jam with your equity at its highest. At worst your 2-1 dog.

Oh yeah, and I HATE a 3! with this hand. 3 betting 86s vs solid tags is equivalent to throwing 100 dollar bills out your window on the freeway. Might as well save em and do some lines off a strippers ass.

There's a chance villains just clicking it back to steal an online move. With that said, and even if he's strong with middle pair and a flush draw your probably a small favorite. So tank for about 20 seconds and shove.
But, I would have liked a flop call more, than raising the flop.

I'm 3-bet or folding this hand preflop. We have a sizing tell on V and he's isolated in the pot.

I don't know why we'd flat 86cc it just doesn't flop well enough, we need decent FE to play it, being the aggressor helps.

And you absolutely have to shove the flop, you really don't want to have to fold turn. Villain can be making a move here with FDs/air and blow you off on turn cards. Shoving here will also get you value in other spots.

FYI, villain 3-bets the flop not 4-bets.

I caught that one right after the Edit button disappeared.

idk if i were villain i think I could hands like this in your PF calling then raising on flop range.

obv 3 bet disguises but as played and if we go by ur description this looks like a set or a hand like J10cc or some kind of combo draw as well. Have to shove here.

Calling pre is the flawed thinking (yet prevelant) that SC and deep stacks go hand in hand profitably. Once you raise the flop you seal the deal--and get it on in.

Are you advocating a 3 bet in this spot to be more long term profitable than a call?

I'd like to hear some expansion on your statement as well. Seems a bit cryptic. I would not advocate that Suited Connectors + Deep Stacks = Auto Call, but I am not seeing the harm so long as you mix it up with 3-bets and folds as well.

Is there a specific reason that you see it as flawed thinking here? My reasoning for not 3 betting was mainly that I did not want to deal with a 4bet and I doubt he'd make the mistake of flatting me there.

And if he does, we need a miracle flop.

Exactly. Additionally I feel like he believes I'm capable of 3 betting him wide and he is likely to 4 bet me wide. So why start measuring tools this early in the hand?

ANL, this is a fold, with a slight mix of 3!'ing to mix up our play? Whats your plan if we 3! and get flatted and do not connect with the flop? C bet and give up if he continues?