Not that 2000 is some awesome achievement, but I will admit that I didn't want my 2000th post to be just a response to someone else's HH. With that in mind I started thinking about what i could do for #2000 that hasn't already been done (difficult) and about which I'm actually qualified to speak (even tougher). What I came up with is not necessarily some awesome strategic ploy, but rather a few observations I've made in the past year since i started playing live on a regular basis (Black Friday FTW).
We've covered what bad players do, see DGIHarris' thread on donks: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...hands-1242315/
+ just about every thread on this board.

We've also covered what good players do, see best of LLSNL: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...llsnl-1168186/

What I'd like to discuss briefly (too late?) is a few things that I've seen consistently from the player pool that I believe is in abundance on this forum; the player who thinks he's good because he read a book somewhere, but has massive leaks that his ego can't allow him to fix. This is in no way exhaustive, and you may disagree with some examples. To that end, I'm counting on my 2+2 superiors to chip in with points and examples to demonstrate ways we can improve that I am not qualified to address (see my limited live experience). I'll post my main few points and we'll see if this turns into a grand sweeping epic or just a fizzled delusion of grandeur.

Ego stroking

There is no surer way to be a douchebag/kill all your action (and mine) by insisting on making sure everyone knows that you know what you're doing.

Examples:
Talking strategy at the table- I'm not an extremist on this, but there is a point where table chatter about the play is far less about being social and far more about demonstrating your superior knowledge of poker. It should be evident why this is a terrible thing to do. No one is ever really impressed

Terminology- THis goes hand in hand with the last point. Why is it so cool to bandy about words like "EV", "fold equity" (as if you had any), and "merge?" Just keep it to yourself. It makes the bad players wonder what you're talking about and the good players laugh silently at the tool who is working so hard to be recognized.

Referencing your online "career"/tourney scores- this should be obvious, but I can't believe how many times I've heard some kid start bragging to the table about what Cake poker has and hasn't done for him. My other favorite are the grandiose claims to have cashed some obscure $1000 buy in tourney on a riverboat somewhere. This is nothing other than "Hey everyone! I'm good! Praise me!"
Berating fish- This has been discussed many times, but it still befuddles me. They played bad and beat you. That's the game. Get over it.

Understanding motivations is key in my opinion. Why do decent players act in ways that are destructive to success? It all stems from a need to be recognized. We crave respect and affirmation and by leading others to believe that we have a superior ability at the game, we will get that respect. So, in a word, this is insecurity. If you know you're good, then you don't need others to tell you so. If you don't know you're good, the path to validation is by becoming good, not by telling everyone that you are. Work, not talk.

I think this is enough for an OP. I had planned on posting a few more points, but I think I'll wait and see if anyone actually made it through this much. I look forward to seeing some other examples of mistakes made by potentially decent players. I'll close by saying that I do not consider myself to be the best ever or better than anyone here. I do know that I am a big winner in my game, but that doesn't travel far. I'd like to thank 2+2 for all the help I've received so far and i look forward to conversing with you all in the future.

Congratulations on your #2000 and very good idea.

I agree that berating bad players is a bad idea, but in my room it is mostly the other players that are berating them.

I have also encountered the fact that mediocre players looked at me and thought/said that I was easy-money. Instead of trying to outplay this particular guy, I decided to value bet him hard (which should anyway be the basis of our game).

And of course Ego should never be in your way. Even if there is one player who is consistently taking money from you, it can still be a good game for you if you go hard after the remaining players.
I would still want to figure out why he makes money off of me though.

The first thing i've noticed many good players do to hurt themselves is lock there game. Maybe they thought about something a year or two ago...but try to get them to reevaluate a fundamental belief of there game, even to discuss it, is just about imposable with many of these players.

You can even see this by the mods, often closing threads because its been discussed before. Or a mod saying this is a matter of taste and closing a thread. Or a mod saying there is not enough information to make a solid decision here, or its too general whatever. I personally don't see how discussing anything can hurt it, this type of closed minded approach in my mind limits many players.

I also see this in threads where players will argue off a rule. A great general rule, still has to be backed by math. I'm not saying the rule is even wrong, but you can't answer someone giving you a range of hands, with a general rule. Rules are great and many are excellent, but do the math from time to time to reevaluate the rules.

This is what bothers me the most.
There are a lot of plays in LLSNL that you can make that might not be "mathematically correct", but are definitely the best thing to do.

EG. raise folding the river, calling large turn bets and folding to small river bets, etc etc.

There are just certain things that live players will never do, which means we can do things that are not always based on math.

First of all, congrats spikeraw22. Good contribution with this thread and you are a positive contributor to this forum.

I don't want to derail this thread, so my response is here.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ostcount=41204

If there are any comments, put them in the chat thread.

Well no the math is always right. You just confusing the general math backing a principle with the actual math backing a particular situation.

In fact that my point. Players often get so caught up in a rule that they miss better lines against the actually range they are playing against.

If you only need to be right 1 out of 10 times, and you know your never good here. the math says fold. A rule might say call with a made hand if your gettign better then 3 to 1 odds (or at least don't put yourself in a situation when folding would be right), and its a good general rule but may not apply to your current situation.

Even Ed Miller after his two great chapters on commitment and spr states you have to check the decision with REM (which is the math).

Suggest to most 2+2ers that shoving AK as a 3 bet 100bb deep might be a better squeeze then the usual 3 bet size...and most will not even discuss it.

Suggest to most 2+2ers that limping AK utg (not planning on c/r) or making a small raise with AA may be a more profitable play in many games..., and most 2+2ers won't discuss or even consider it. Too them these plays are just wrong no discussion no possibility, these and other ideas are so ingrained in there heads, they just can't consider there might be a situation where the other plays have a greater EV.

Sure the plays are often going to be wrong, that's why the original rule or idea was created, but unless your willing to consider these radically different ideas from time to time you limit your growth as a player.

I believe the point that is being made here is that it is always important to have an active mind. Even simple decisions can be made better by thinking through what we think we already know. It's easy to lay down rules and regulations. Structure is a way for our minds to take on more. The problem is that rigid adherence to any structure without understanding the motivations behind it can lead to mistakes. This example is way out of context, but I grew up in a very religious home. In our particular environment, we were given very stringent pointedrules for just about everything. Every decision was already made for you. This led to absurd lifestyle mandates that were beyond bizarre from an outside perspective. Luckily, my parents (and I when I got older) were intelligent enough to evaluate these things on our own (eventually) and broke away to some degree. The same can hold true at the poker table. Not every situation will fall under a blanket rule.

Next point on leaks of decent players who could be better:

Missing Value

This is another point that I've seen made on this forum by the great posters and yet every day we see threads where the hero checked the river because "nothing worse will call." We miss HUGE value with this. I could even make the point that we're missing HUGE value by not over betting on a regular basis. Most fish call too wide. We all know that. This doesn't really change from street to street usually (note usually). Before I get a bunch of people crying about old man nits, I'll refer you to the previous paragraph on engaging your brain. Most 1/2 players however, will call when they shouldn't.

We often make this mistake because we assume it's obvious what we have, and that it's obvious what they should do. It's not to them. They suck. That's why we're playing with them. Give them a chance to suck more.
Examples: 50's gentleman who is there to gamble and have a good time. calls my river 2x pot bet with 2 pair on a paired, flushed, straight board. No idea why.
50's educated nice guy calls a river 2x pot bet with two pair on a straight flush board. No idea why.
I didn't give a lot of context there, but the point is that these guys will call with horrible relative hand strength.
Again motivation is key. Just like the decent but limited player is driven by a need to be seen as good, the fish is driven by curiosity, the thrill of making the big call, and God knows what else runs through their brains. Don't let them off the hook.
Note, this is not intended to be an advocacy of Isildur1 style aggression at LLSNL. Just examples of value attained that most players wouldn't get.

Thanks for the replies so far.

Excellent point spike. I feel like I find myself typing the words "make the villain show us he is good enough to fold here" quite often. Too often posters use logic like "I would fold here if I were the villain, so I just shouldn't bet." But, the average V calls too often and doesn't raise back at us nearly enough.

I also agree spike. I think another leak (well really the same one), and one I'm often guilty of is giving too much credit to bad players. Young kid comes to the table, think he must be an internet wiz.

Get raised and put to the test by a player a couple of times, he's a great tag...no most of the time the deck is hitting him.

And as Spike said, not going for value because are hand is face up and they could not possibly call with worse, but they can.

And of course it's cousin perfect bluff card hits everything I'm repping, sure he likes to call but he could not possibly call here, and guess what he calls.

very nice post, my poker ego does me more harm than good.

The biggest problem I have is that I love talking poker. Maybe I love it because of my ego, though.

/chicken/egg mode engaged.

Before I make another ass of myself, To Spike - Grats on 2k posts. I've learned quite a bit from our sparring on the forums. Now hurry up and get to 5k.

I see what you are trying to say here, but you are presenting it in the wrong way. Math doesn't care about experience, it cares about the math. If the poker math says you only need to call 1 out of 10 times to be profitable, and you are getting better than that with the pot odds....the math will ALWAYS scream "CALL CALL CALL". The Math doesn't say that he only makes this kind of bet when he holds the nuts, it has no way of relaying that information to you.

Psychology, experience, and analysis of betting patterns will tell you more information, to supplement your mathematics. This is where having good experience in both mathematics and psychology will strengthen your game.

I'ts deceptive and misleading to think that the math will tell you your opponent will only act this way when they have a certain hand. The math will only tell you certain things. Psychology and experience tells you other things. You need both to make a decision properly.

i know exactly what you mean. I think my poker friends get sick of talking poker with me. I have learned, however, not to talk about it at a table full of fish. At best it comes off as no it all and at worst it comes off as great free instruction. I can't think of a time when I've ever heard someone talk strategy at the table when it was both correct and not contrived. My two cents.

Now I'm off to spew 1/4 of my bank roll on as many seasons of Breaking Bad as I can find. Just started watching it and I love it.

Even the most intelligent regs at my cardroom tend to talk strat randomly. Like across the ****ing table. Must be an ego thing. For what it's worth, my #1000 was about katsu curry in the food forum

Actually if you're trying to make this point, then you don't see what he is saying. The "math" will tell you the pot odds, which may say "you need to be good 1 out of 10 times to call", but the math will basically never tell you whether you actually are good 1 out of 10 times, so "math" will not tell you whether to call or fold. It will only tell you, "Call if you are good more than 10% of the time and fold if you are good less than 10%." That is information that you cannot compute--you need to figure it out based on your reads at the table.

Eh, I've been absorbing a lot of poker-related data lately. I may have a concept ****ed up...which if that is the case then I'm glad you said something.

Basically it implied that I had figured out my opponents range, and I figured that the hand I have beats 10% of his range. Calling 1000 times with a 10% of chance of winning would average 1 in 10 times. However the pot odds are giving me 20:1.

Right, so in that case you'd have a correct call, but you only know it's correct because you figured out your opponent's range. My point is that that is not a mathematical calculation (unless you are counting combinations of specific hands, but you have to know those hands are in his range before you do that). Putting someone on a range is something you do before any math gets done.

Well......yes. Yes you are right. I stand corrected. One of these days I'm going to get something right...in the meantime I'll be happy with continuing to learn.

Great post.

Missing value will always be apart of the game. Its a game of incomplete information. Almost after everyhand I'm thinking "I could have bet more, or bet less". Its a repeating cycle for me.

As for the math is idiotic comments. Its funny and needs to stop. You guys just have not reached the higher level of poker math. Its not concrete, no clear black and white picture. You need to be weighting ranges in your calculations and or calculating fe. Having a pure computer math based game has no place in poker. You need to have free formulas that you can insert any situation and come up with an answer.

I was thinking of a western cowboy poker movie. I remember they had some nerd doing math calculations with pen and paper. He was the first one out,lol. Just look at all the math poker playing wizards, they suck if you ask me. Its because their math is too strong.

I hope I didn't come across as someone who is claiming that math is idiotic at the tables.....

You didn't.

The hardest part about poker isn't the logic (or math). It is the reads (or assumptions). Most people are logical. They get that if A=B and B=C, then A=C. The problem is that they make lots of mistakes about A=B and B=C. If the person can only have the nuts, then folding even getting 50:1 is the right answer.

You compound that with the fact that in poker you can make the absolutely right play and still lose. If you don't understand the the system behind the logic, it is easy to fall into the trap of, "I've lost the last 3 times chasing a draw on the river getting 5:1 to call. The right answer should be to just fold every time."

There's some discussion the chat thread about this, but the critical portion of a winning poker player in my mind is to be a NT and the hardest to overcome is being a SF naturally.

great movie.

i agree that the math is only a piece of a larger scheme of logic that determines every decision. At some moments math is almighty. Others, it means near nothing. Sometimes its a combination of math and psychology. It all comes down to figuring out the moments to implement the different skills you have, and how to combine those skills to make the best decisions.

There is never a time where math is irrelevant. IMO there is never a time when it isn't paramount. You factor your reads into your mathematical decisions. For those of us without the brain power to do math on the fly, we are left with JUST our reads and some basic understanding of sweeping concepts. The truly great players can incorporate live reads with their head math.
Onward...

Disregarding position

I don't understand it, but otherwise decent players are so damned undisciplined with regards to position. Their preflop ranges often do not differ with position, and just because they haven't seen a decent hand in a while, they decide to call an UTG raise from MP with LP's lined up behind with J9o. THey'll remember the one time they out flopped everyone and forget every time they didn't have a horseshoe up their ass. Then they talk to their friends about how their 2p ran into a straight and they got coolered. They didn't get coolered. They made mistakes and lost. Small example (not a brag). Last night, an annoying albeit semi competent player made it $12 from MP and 2 people called. I looked down at AQo in the SB and realized that she hadn't raised that much preflop before, and even if i did hit the flop, I was OOP vs. 3 people and a raiser. Fold. It saved me money then, and it will continue to save me money in the future. Position is everything in this game. It's the one advantage fish get by accident if we give it to them. Maintain your discipline with regards to position.

Side note: Last night I witnessed two classic examples of the OP topic. These two guys violated every single rule I laid out. I wanted to slap them. Luckily, they were "card dead" and both got felted just ahead of the floor manager kicking them out for being tools. Don't be a tool!

good post;
i second the motion; talking poker strat at the table is beyond horrible.
thats another reason this board is here; to get it out of your system.

agree with venice; information gathering is the nuts. you can't make sound logical decisions if the building blocks of info you are working with are flawed, or if you don't have any/ enough.
[ theres no deductive reasoning without proper inductive reasoning to set it up.]
In live poker, that's really the name of the game; knowing your opponents tendancies, and thinking, motivations (mentioned by OP)...

If we focused on this aspect, learning how to better gather information at the table, half as much as we do on how to play our cards, then i think it would profit us greatly.