@ JLoc - fwiw If I was in the hand I also would of 3bet OTF. I dont like flatting. As played when hero flats and v1 3bets I feel we just got a lot of information... Luckily

And I'm saying, in the manner in which you (or your friend) went about soliciting that "information" (which is ultimately the root of your problem), it may not exactly be as transparent in deciphering as you may think... Unluckily

Hero Shoves...

V1 calls... (I think V2 folded? I'll have to ask him)

Hero says you got Jacks?

V1 says yep.. (I guess this was an obvious thread Azula )

Turn

Bink 4 ship it to hero....

I just dont see AA/KK/QJ in V1's range with his line. His lead bet OTF would of been much more IMO, much much more. When he 3bets his line screams monster. But hey maybe thats just me... (BTW when he told me the hand and before I knew the results I was pretty sure it was a set. No ROT here)

i think we could maybe resolve AA/KK from QQ/JJ/QJ here. and i suppose villains at these stakes are more likely to play a nutty hand like QQ or JJ like this than they are to play top 2 like this. but i'm still skeptical that we can resolve QJ from QQ/JJ based on his line.

i mean folding a set to a higher set is such a sick read situation, especially live. it's tough to discuss in a forum, cuz you'd have to be there to have that read convincingly IMO. i play with a lot of "solid tight" villains that could show up with QJ here so easily, i don't know if i could get away from this 100bb deep even if i had a pretty convincing read

In reality i would have never been able to make the heroic laydown since i doubt i would flat the first 75 ever. But once that did happen, i really thought it to be open book from that point on.


I honestly am dying for the day that the US will open up the online gaming so we can get back to great poker games on the internet. Personally i am somewhat burned out on the long hours necessary for live poker playing along with what i find to be the horribleness of dealing with slow dealers, loud obnoxious drunks, late night hours and the whole physicalness of working with chips etc. instead of a computer and mouse. That will be new Independence Day when we can 10 table with the transparent idiots again online rather than in a Casino.

Just got to this one (I'm a little slow I guess) but I'm puke shoving on this flop given the action. I think villain is just as likely to wake up with AA/KK as JJ/QQ but maybe weighted slightly more to sets. I would need an absolutely sick read to fold a set 100bbs deep.

I've seen tight players like this stack off with AQ here often enough thinking they are good that I'm never folding. Very read dependent if you want to get away.

same

is it true that the non-US rooms are fishier? i dunno, i haven't played online for a while

ya. i mean, basically it comes down to this for me in this hand:

if you never fold in this spot on principal, regardless of reads, it wouldn't be too bad of a policy for 1/2 and 2/5 live. against almost all live players, we can play our hole cards here. (and ya, ANL will disagree)

NOPE I wont be disagreeing.

I gave my reply just because these quirky little plays by fishy villains just seem to click with me as to what they really are. If i could see the donk lead for 20 and the backraise before i did anything, i would muck the 444 without even watching the rest of the hand. But i dunno, thats just me.

But your default line with 444 here at 1/2 or 2/5, yea, im down with just saying get it on in without thinking cause the few instances that i get this right and escape the stackoff are so few and far between that it doesnt matter in the whole scheme of things really.


And i wish i could state what Tommy Angelo was saying when he got on the tangent of how arguing over the specific optimal line in poker was really kind of wasted time, and that the general overall way a player handles the game at a higher level....

transcends the specific line squabbles that we have here sometimes.

I wish i could clearly put into words what he meant but i just cannot. I dont have that ability. But i DO know what he was talking about. Its the same reason that several top players can totally disagree on lines to be taken, yet they both win at a top winrate. Different players are able to play the game differently, and yet arrive at the same destination at the same time with the same results etc. I guess that is what makes this game of poker so fascinating really.

interesting. i really need to read Elements of Poker

TJ Cloutier did. I remember him writing once that he generally doesn't take much time to make a decision because if it is really difficult, there isn't that much of a difference between them.

At low stakes, players are making large errors even in their "A" game. A player can have a significantly better "A" than another player. We have long discussions because all of us are making large errors in some aspect or another.

At the highest levels, the difference between their "A" games is so small as to not matter. Where they will have an argument is over a 51/49 situation that rarely occurs. Their edge in a game is:

1. Identifying when someone is playing their "C" game. Top pros get drunk, are depressed, or have some other reason they are playing worse than their best.

2. They can identify when they aren't on the "A" game and get up and leave.

3. They have the ability to seek and attract whales to a table. Table selection is huge at that level. Tom Dwan made millions recently in Macau playing rich Chinese players. He is well known, but the key reason he can even get in the game is that he's entertaining to play with and understands that he needs to show them some gamble so that they will gamble with him. Doyle didn't get rich from playing Chip Reese and David Grey, he got rich from playing drug dealers and other wealthy, but bad players.

That is spot on for sure. I have only played in a few games that were large enough that we had uber rich guys who were huge producers for the game. These guys wont play small since its meaningless to them. But a key ingredient is making them feel part of the "group". In their businesses they most likely have mostly enemies or others who are basically jealous of them, or whatever. They dont have a "click" to belong to. The smart poker players see this an embrace them. And its honestly if done correctly NOT a hustle in its purest sense. Its a symbiotic relationship where each person is getting something they want. We had a person like this in our 40/80 limit holdem game for years at the Bike in California. A wealthy man became fairly close to me and another friend and loved the fun idea of him giving me a $10 chip when he won a pot, and vice versa. WEll, he played every hand. I played pretty tag. I did this for like 2 years and only god knows how much i collected ust off of that deal. But it wasnt just a hustle. I went to his country club and played tennis with him, went to movies with him and it was an actual friendship that last quite some time.

Im fairly sure that on a different scale, Doyle and Tom D. are able to befriend some of the wealthiest in the world and benefit from it to levels i cant even imagine. But the cool thing is that when done what "to me" would be called correctly, there is zero mal intent hustle involved. Everyone has needs/wants/desires and sometimes it works out fantastic for each party, even though it appears that one is bloodsucking off the other.

Oh yea, dont worry, there is the pure hustle going on too, but from all i have ever heard, the upper crust of the poker world such as Doyle, or Tom D dont involved themselves in this manner whatsoever.

And its exactly as a tremendous live player once told me, "all we have is our reputation". It follows us everywhere we go, and a bad reputation can take a lifetime to turn around, if ever.

meh. i think that's all hustle. it's just that it doesn't bother me if the players come to the table looking to take your money too. then it's a gg, and hero just happens to be better (or not, as the case may be). that being said there are some moral questions that, if i ever were to make a good amount of money at poker, i would have to think about for a bit.

venice, your and ANL's statements contradict somewhat. you say at the higher levels of poker, basically there aren't any large mistakes being made in players' A-games anymore. however ANL said that according to Angelo, there can be large disagreements between good, winning players at these levels. seems to me the two can't both be true. if what venice said is true, players at the highest levels should all have virtually identical A-games for any given situation (i.e. table, set of villains, etc.)

The size of the disagreement has little to do with size of the edge by selecting one or another.

Here's a high level discussion and disagreement over Tom Dwan's first HSP season bluff against Barry Greenstein and Peter Eastgate. http://www.pokerroad.com/forums/red-...eason-5-a.html

If anyone other than Dwan was the protagonist in the hand, I think there would have been little debate. Even after the editing for that show, it was clear that Dwan's presence rattled the TV pros in a way that someone like Galfond never did. The only major disagreement (BG vs. everyone else) was over Barry's call on the flop, which was terribad, despite the Bear's insistence to re-evaluate on the turn and that he had two outs.

Well actually, like i was saying, its kind of hard to put into words. I will give a slight shot at it. When Venice says there is little difference in A games, this is true. But that doesnt mean that the "lines" are the same, it just means that the A game is very close to each other in earn/edge etc. To put in real time at a table, think of the conservative player vs the superlag player, each on the highest level, each enjoying a very similar edge as far as overall winrate is concerned. They will play hands MUCH differently, yet end up at the same point at the end of the day.

Its why poker to me has to be one of the most brilliant games ever conceived since it can be played instantly from day 1 (and players on day 1 will think they are ok at it), as well as Jungleman level, AND fishy players will believe that they can hang with the best for years upon years blaming losses on everything but the truth. Not to mention that very good levels of play can be done a zillion different ways and work for each individual. Compare that to chess or blackjack where there is ONE right play, and thats it.

So the mere mortals that we are will fight over our individual thoughts of how the lines should be taken, when in reality a ton more should be said of the particular meta/history/recent hands should be discussed more. And if there has been no recent meta, that might be an error in itself since devoid of any emotional upset or mental games being played, poker is reduced to standard ABC rote lines which even they can be done in more ways than one.

I find it all super interesting, and my nature is to like to argue apparently so it all suits me just fine when discussing all the different thought patterns and mindsets that we even see here. I love it. Its just how wild it is that bluegrassplayer and i just about see things at totally different ends of the spectrum. 180 degree difference. And im sure hes no idiot, nor i. See how interesting i can find that? Its what makes this world go around. The differences are what define us, rather than the likenesses.

are you talking about hand analysis?
TA does say that you can waste energy agonizing over the correct line in a hand where it's a close decision. it's funny that we tend to obsess over the close decisions, when mathematically it doesnt really matter which way you play it, it's a close decision, and your EV is probably not effected either way.
It's the play in small pots, or seemingly uninteresting hands, that major leaks in your game can be hiding, but you take your play for granted in those spots, so the leaks continue for a long time without being fixed. and they add up more than one thinks.

what he says about analyizing hands at the table is gold;
DON"T.

use your memory, or jot it down for later, but analyzing the last hand in your mind, while you're playing the next one guarantees youre not on A game performance.

'Elements of poker' is a must read.

[QUOTE=stampler;23360440]are you talking about hand analysis?
TA does say that you can waste energy agonizing over the correct line in a hand where it's a close decision. it's funny that we tend to obsess over the close decisions, when mathematically it doesnt really matter which way you play it, it's a close decision, and your EV is probably not effected either way.
It's the play in small pots, or seemingly uninteresting hands, that major leaks in your game can be hiding, but you take your play for granted in those spots, so the leaks continue for a long time without being fixed. and they add up more than one thinks.


yea i guess. What i can see myself this to mean is somewhat the idea that
close plays in poker dont really matter either way, and if several very good players can argue about a certian line, then that isnt a big deal either. But what is important is all the little stuff that adds up that most players dont even see every at live poker.

Online poker shows it to us very clearly. IOW, you can do ok in all your big pots, big decisions etc. on a daily basis even, yet do crummy overall and wonder why. But with the sophisticated software of today you can look at see exactly where you are leaking horrobly and many times its nothing more than a case of peeling too many flops when you shouldnt. It doesn take many of those peels incorrectly to make up for the profit earned in a 100bb stackoff with a set vs a combo draw. Yet we think we have just done something when we stack the guy with that hand.

iTS a real eye opening light bulb moment when you find out that really how well you win overall is not from those big pots, but from the tiny little skirmishes that happen all along the way that we dismiss as nothing pots.

Mpethybridge and Split have been offering a "Leakfinder" special for microplayers which is worth its weight in gold. Not only do you get a look at what you are doing, Mpethybridge brings millions of hands of experience to tell you how well you are doing vs. a good (nobody average is paying money for it) player. He cleared 6 leaks of mine in about an hour.

And don't fool yourself in thinking that is just for micro on-line players. The link below (NSFW) is a sick brag (even sicker than hanging out with a playboy playmate).

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...1&postcount=81

wow yeah thats a sick brag

does anyone get a session with the girl if we pay in advance for the leakfinder program?

I think i feel myself leaking now as a matter of fact.

yes. i'm leaking like a sieve

is this the new chat thread? lol i know APD doesn't care tho

let the derail continue

I started reading the pokerroad red pro forum... Never knew it existed. Was laughing at some of the stuff being discussed. Sounded like stuff we talk about... hmmmm

i kinda wanna register and just spam all the strat threads. lol jk

makes sense tho. if u wanted to discuss with only people in ur circle of players. u dont want 2+2'ers coming on and saying fold pre