I am really new to posting on here so please excuse any mistakes.

The table has been very social with everyone talking, drinking and having a good time. The dealers and floor have allowed/overlooked many things including players talking about the hands in multi-way pots. On several occasions 4 of the players chose to go $100 blind pre-flop and check it down. Typical Friday night 1/2NL crowd

Hero (865) -mid 40's and tonight is playing fairly tight, but the table doesn't notice. I get called on every street by two players after 3-betting Aces from the big blind and flopping top set.
V1 (200 fresh rebuy)- mid 30's, well dressed, no idea of whats going on, drunk. Played every hand for the last 2 hours and is into the game for $1200. Will fold only if he misses flop. Calls down everything with any pair and calls any draw.
V2 (~1200)- young college kid, he always seems to know where he is in a hand, a winning player that mixes it up. He has also been drinking and having fun with his side of the table.

Hand: UTG straddles 4 - V1 makes it $15 from MP1 and V2 makes it $40 from MP2. Hero flats with QQ from SB.

thoughts on flatting here? I didn't want to inflate the pot oop against a player that is probably better than me.

V1 tank raises to $80. V2 tank calls. Hero calls.

thoughts on flatting here? Can a fold be justified here?

Flop: (~235) 1083
V1 leads $60
V2 immediately announces all in
before i could act ....
V1 says he is all in and proudly flips over AK and says, "I got the nuts!"
before i could act again......
V2 says, "I got the real nuts" and shows J9

the dealer almost deals the turn and I have to stop him to let him know that i am still in the hand. I joke and say that it's pretty tough to beat two guys that have the nuts.

thoughts on what to do here? Is this a snap call? or is it a fold? I only had $80 invested and would have folded if any A or K came on the flop, but i was torn. I felt that if i didn't see the cards i would have folded, but i did see them. I some how justified in my brain that if i called and only beat V2 and i discounted hearts thinking that V2 had 6 outs twice and i should put the money.

Turn: (595 main) (1330 side) 7

River: 3

One of the regs at the table sitting to my right told me to report the hand to the floor as it is a rule in this room that any exposed hand is a dead hand.

Thoughts on this?

After seeing my stack get pushed across the table, i just kept thinking to myself that there would have been so many better spots. I still ended up having a winning session, but my brain is still on this hand.

Reporting it after you lose on the river would be terrible etiquette imo.

I think flop is a fold. He has 15 outs. Calling is just really high variance, and personally, when I'm that deep, I try to avoid those situations.

Preflop I'm ok with given our stack size and v2 and v2 description as winning player. But if he was described as loose (3 betting light like J9) then I can definitely see a 4! here. But still I lean toward flatting here when 400bb deep. As long as V2 is in, I'm definitely not folding pre for another $40.

Think this also requires more info from V. Like his cbet frequency, 3 bet frequency, 3 bet range, cbet sizing, etc

Definitely plus EV to call. I guess it depends upon if you are properly rolled for the game or not.

I don't like how you played this hand pre.

Following the initial 3bet, I would 4bet. Flatting has you OOP against two opponents with QQ, and you have no clue if one of them has KK or AA. So you're almost set mining here. If you 4bet and get 5bet by V2, you can pretty safely fold here.

I really dislike flatting after V1 re-raises and V2 smooth calls. That tells me it's very likely V2 has a hand like 99, 1010, JJ, AK or AQ suited here. Unlikely he has KK or AA. This is an outstanding spot to re-raise again, to $250 or so.

Folding with QQ in this spot to an additional $40 would be criminal.
Re-raise>call>fold. Calling is not good and folding is awful.

I'm snap calling the flop jam. You need to put in another $785 to scoop a total pot of $1,930 in a hand you're favored in. Why would you fold when calling is so very +EV?

If you're worried about the variance, I'd say something like "I'm the favorite here and I'm calling, but I'm guessing you (V1) didn't realize I was in the hand when you shoved and I'd be happy to run it three times". He almost for certain will accept.

It sucks that you lost but an objective, non-results oriented view on this means calling the flop is the only right play.

I should note that I was too lazy to do any pot calculations when posting on my phone... just felt like stacking off on this flop this deep is not ideal.

Also, I don't think we're the favorite here are we? I mean the call is definitely +EV, but I don't think we are favorites in terms of just equity.

Wow this is pretty sick. Like you said, being able to actually see what you're up against is what makes it even sicker.

I think it is a fold. You aren't the favorite to win with two more cards to come and will have to fade a MASSIVE flip for almost 1,000 big blinds. But having a made hand and being in a spot to scoop such a monstrous pot, I can't fault you for calling. Also, having only invested $80 into this cluster**** would definitely have made me lean toward the fold.

Now lets say you chose to 4B, making it $200 to go. V1 is always calling you after doing the tank raise thing (which is exactly what I would want when taking this line) but is V2 really going fold after he has already invested $80? I am not sure, we would need to know more about him- but I doubt it. So when the flop comes and he jams on you, your decision to fold can be made much easier as he is representing a very nutted range with any bet he puts in. Or should he fold you can comfortably take the flip versus drunkie and hopefully hold for a nice pot thanks to V2 juicing it up for you guys. Also not sure why he is 3 betting J9s versus this drunk fish V1, definitely not a winning play and is going to put himself in very tricky spots should he not flop "the real nuts"

Never calling irl

Off table, it's worth doing the math exercise if you're not a seasoned pro. You'll find "profit" in a call, but little business sense in doing so. Your shareholders certainly wouldn't approve.

Also, you aren't "favored" to win as above poster has proclaimed.

I believe we are about 50/50 against V2 for the $1,330 "side pot" as two hearts (AK) are dead and two of his straight outs (QQ) are dead.

So I believe he has 7 flush outs and 6 straight outs (I'll put the Qh in the flush outs category) for a total of 13 outs, with the Qd giving us a set and possible boat options/outs.

V1 is a tourist seated in seat 2 and does not have a clue. This is only the second time he has raised and this is his first re-raise (he had to ask his options and when the dealer said "fold, call or raise" he jokingly said "i pick raise" and the dealer again had to assist and tell him with the amount. He said "ok ok ok I will do $40 more"

V2 is a good reg player and can adapt to many different styles of play. While certainly capable of 3-betting light, tonight he was playing snug. Almost every hand was going to showdown and he always had the goods.

@Keaton - yeah it's definitely close. I put it into the equity calc and V is favorite by a few percentages.

Regardless, it's clearly +EV to call but really depends on if we want to flip for our stack.

Pre-flop, again, I think we need a better description on V2. If we think he's capable at all of 3! as light as J9s here... I mean it's a clear 4! for pure value.


Edit:

@Ripacad - If V2 was playing snug, then honestly I'm ok flatting here. An argument can still be made to put in the 4! after he flats a 3! - figure he would 4! with KK/AA/AK here to isolate V1, but I could be wrong. If V2 was playing snug and is a good player, then I don't mind flatting as we could have big implied odds.

Flop analysis is the same though imo.

I don't agree with this. Lets say we 4bet to $250 as I suggested. V1 is of course calling. I think it's really, really tough for V2 to call with J high here after we are repping QQ, KK, or AA.

Assuming they do somehow call, the pot is now $750 and we have about $600 behind. Without an Ace or King on the board, this is a call to any shove.

Definitely agree that it's a high variance spot. I wouldn't be thrilled about having to call off my stack this deep here on the flop, but I'm never finding a fold either...

I do think offering to run it three times would be a reasonable and welcomed suggestion that dramatically cuts down on the unnecessary high variance for both deep stacked players in this hand.

I am pretty sure I fold 100% of the time should the cards not be exposed.

I tried explaining this to my wife and she said, "that's what you get for looking at other peoples cards."

The poker room does not permit this. Something about messing with the bad beat jackpot.

I have to agree with you on this. When 4betting we are pricing ourselves in to call any shove anyway right? Say you 4B to $250 and he shoves over top. Is it possible to fold there? It is a question of whether or not V2 is capable of overcalling here with KK or AA, and with the way this action has gone I do think it is possible- if this guy is actually as good as OP says he is. I think that if he really is thinking on an advanced level then he would 4B himself with those hands being so deepstacked with Hero. So if he does end up just calling and then jamming, then you are right. It is a must call.

That sucks and does make it a tougher call. I'm still never folding as the call is very much +EV but it's a difficult spot for sure.

queens have a decent edge on the main pot even before you factor dead money :

Hold'em Simulation ?
903 trials (Exhaustive)
board: Th8h3c
Hand Equity Wins Ties
AhKh 39.98% 361 0
Jh9h 23.48% 212 0
QcQs 36.54% 330 0

and we are killing the side too.


board: Th8h3c
dead cards: AhKh
Hand Equity Wins Ties
Jh9h 44.52% 402 0
QcQs 55.48% 501 0


ship ship ship, and stop hiding ur cards


and you definitely cannot fold for $40 more pre the last time around, potentially u could toss it to the raise and reraise

No one has 15 outs, except hero. You need to be able to recognize this in real time, not to mention HHs.

Also, this isn't a high variance spot, it's pretty standard. In addition, the fact that the pot is being splashed to some extent by the combination of villains dampens the variance.

There's $6 of dead money in a $235 pot. No one in his right mind is even thinking about that.

OP, you should have called the floor before you acted on the flop. In most rooms, action out of turn is not binding, and you should clarify whether it was in this case.

Pre: first flat is fine, I would
Make it $225 when it gets back to me a second time.

In game, I call the flop shove because V is down 4 outs with the AK and QQ out there. With JJ I probably fold to avoid the variance.

I dont get how this is not a snap call. We have to dodge 19 cards twice out of 43. Even at the table thats pretty quick to see we have about 60% on each card dealt.

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snap? You'd be a slight dog to either hand individually (still making it correct to gii with the money already in the pot) but together it's pretty obvious you have at least 33%.

Of course, you can run the equity calc and see you have 36.54%

I am not a proponent of abusing dumbass house rules to make winning hands lose pots. I would graciously accept that you got gifted almost two hunnit in carefree equity and move on.

are you high? there is $240 in dead money

There's $6 of dead money. Check the definition of dead money with any reputable source. There's $235 in the pot.

And BTW, by asking "Are you high?" you pretty much destroyed any shred of legitimacy. Dead money is money contributed by players whose hands are no longer live. I.e. they are disqualified from claiming the pot. Each time a player folds a hand he has wagered on, he creates dead money.

3 aces, 3 kings, 7 additional hearts, 3 additional sevens, and 1 additional queen. 17 cards. The 3 is subject to a thin redraw, as is the Q.

55/45 for the big side pot.36% to scoop.

Our 2 straight blockers and the other villains 2 flush blockers make this a fairly easy snap call vs the deep villains oesfd.

If we have two black J or K it gets way dicier.

When I say easy I mean easily +EV. I get that it's high variance.

Op the "only 80 invested" is immaterial Your EV is based on your equity and the total money in the pot(s) not how much you have or have not invested.

Btw re: "dead money" ... right or wrong people frequently refer to the overlay in the pot as dead money.