hey all -

not used to posting live HHs but wondered what your guys thoughts were. VILL is brand new to table and has won one smallish pot, so i flat here hoping his UTG range is narrow and i can get paid if i hit.


2/5

VILL UTG ($600) raise to $20
fold
fold
hero MP 1 ($650) call $20 7c4c
fold
fold
flatter1 call $20 CO ($1000)
flatter 2 call $20 BTN ($500)
fold SB
fold BB

flop ($80) 754r (no clubs)

VILL bets $80
hero??


not sure honestly if i played any hands while VILL was there, but probably only 1 or so, since i was playing on the TAGish side.

flatter 1 seems good and has been playing a reasonably large amount of pots aggressively and well. we've tangled a few times and he's given me trouble in position once.

flatter 2 is new to the table and no reads.

Preflop is bad, but not just because you're making an assumption on villain that hasn't proven itself yet. We're not deep enough and although we have position on UTG villain, we still have lots of players behind us left to act that either repop the action or make us OOP OTF. As played, it's a tough spot that was instigated by our preflop line... Personally, I'd call with the intent to fold if any villain's behind raise, and shove over a villain turn bet on blanks (assuming it's heads up). If other villain's call, we're in another bad spot... Dno, don't like it.

I see - good to know... so 200 bb+ and reads that UTG is narrow to make this type of call as a general guideline? Or given position, it's just never any good with something as speculative as a suited 3-gapper?

I can tell you for certain that I took into account that no one behind me was likely to repop light based on what I had seen over a few hours - exception of course being flatter #2 who was new to the table.

Yeah a 3bet is rare at 2/5. Flatting is fine, when we flat we have a hit or miss hand and position on the raiser. I would flat flop, and raise OTT.

I lean towards 3-betting cause you want your decisions to end there and not have to play OOP on later streets. He is c-betting on a scary flop vs a lot of people and this shows strength. So we are playing our hand face up and actually we are on the bottom of our raising range here BUT I think this is the best choice overall.

it's become sort of relevant to this thread to not make assumptions that can be to your disadvantage.

for that reason i want to say that calling 3bets rare at 2/5 is false. in some games it is super true and i find im the only one ever 3-betting pre. in some games there are regular 3-bettors more like an online type of game (usually younger guys).

you probably know this, but i feel like there were times when i was new to the forums and i would see someone throw out an assertion like this and i would take it at face value which i think you'd agree is not what you want.

also, if you are flatting flop what is your plan if someone behind flats and another straight card comes on the board - are you giving up? if someone behind raises?

you say raise OTT - any turn card you are raising? this is assuming of course that the villain barrels the turn, which sometimes he will check, no?

Well I said rare because 5/10+ is when that 3betting light is normal. So I was not justifying knowone 3bets, my comment was that knowone 3bets light at 2/5. Anytime I sit at a 2/5 table im the only one with a 3betting range thats polarized. So in regard to my qoute that 3betting is rare is optimal for 2/5. I wouldnt make that call ever in a 5/10 game. Anything 2/5 or smaller flatting light is an optimal strategy. Ok to the hand, we have 2pair on a very low board, I think our hand hit and our opponents missed, so flatting when we are light miles ahead is the best way to build the pot, to set up our move OTT. OTT if the pfr fires again we should raise, we can either a( raise for value or b( if a scare card comes like another straight card, we can raise and turn our 2 pair into a bluff if we our behind, with the pot being so big OTT are options and FE is the highest. If he checks we take the lead and set the river pricing.

*GRUNCH*

Well, I think the PF flat is pretty questionable. I mean I can understand your thinking IN A VACUUM, as in 74s is an AA-cracking hand, but in reality this isn't a good spot. You're in MP1 flatting this raise, not knowing what villains behind you might do. You acknowledge that there's a competent, aggressive villain behind you in late position, so a 3bet is not at all out fo the realm of possibility. imo, fold pre. This hand is callable in LATE position, CO or BUT, with like four callers in front of you, but a cold-call of an UTG raiser with competent aggs behind? Nah, not a good expectation if you ask me.

AS PLAYED: I think I've gotta raise here. I think we've got the opener's overpair/AK c-bet beat, and if we were heads up, or there was a weakish passive type player in the pot with us, I might flat the 80, planning to raise turn. BUT, with the competent behind us, I think it's a raise. We flopped damn near gin, but it's vulnerable. A6s, 67s, 56s, 64s, any of those hands could have conceivably overcalled the UTG raise from late position, and we could get good value out of those hands if they decide to chase. I raise to about $225.

QFT, this would be my line of play.

agreed on the mistake of pre-flop. raised flop for just those reasons to almost that exact price. all folded.

thanks for those who have given some input...

as played:

I raise to 200, if one of the two players behind us ship it i fold (pretty much has to be set+ then); if original raiser ships I sigh call and pray you hold