Maybe I went into too much detail with villains thoughts.

But

I don't think many people give the average villain enough credit. Even if they aren't counting the number of AQ and QJ combinations vs the number of AK, KT, QJ, and other combinations, doesn't mean that they can't tell the difference between a bad flop and a good flop against a raisers range - even if they have never heard the term range before.

Almost all villains I play against (and many are really really bad) are at least thinking something like "****, that king is a ****ty card. I know this tight ass only raises with big pairs and AK and he's still betting into me. I'm not paying his ass off."


But of course you can justify any play by saying "No this guy was really really really bad and I KNOW he calls with bottom pair here EVERY time."

So whatever. If you want to play that card, go ahead. I can't argue with that. I'll just have to take your word for what you've observed.

But if we are going to go into discussion of things that aren't backed by anything other than our observations of players' tendencies, then I'm going to say this:
Against average-bad players in the 2/5 games I play at, they aren't calling this river with worse often enough for it to be a bet. And you can't argue with that because you don't know what I've observed.

check behind river

your ahead of what he can have but he doesnt call with worse

Still continues to be advice on a standard line taken against an unknown.

Not villain specific.


Actually if villain was a complete unknown, I would agree with the check behind.


But, he isn't.


Anyway, I think I've made my opinion sufficiently well known at this point in thread, no since continuing to beat a dead horse.

Anyway, I fold... and Villain rolls over 87ss. For the first time in a while I say "good hand" and mean it.

Ah, so it turns out he is capable of c/r bluffing.

If you thought him capable of this, and clearly he is, then obv it's a check behind.


My whole stand on the thin value bet, is based on the following two assumptions:

1. Villain won't c/r bluff here.

2. Villain will call light enough, often enough to make it a correct value bet.


However, if he will c/r bluff here, and more importantly, if he is turning his medium strength hands into a bluff on the river, instead of calling lightly with them, then it's an easy check behind.



But the reason to check behind, isn't because there aren't plenty of worse hands in his range, it's because he will check raise (sometimes for value with QJ, and KT, and sometimes as a bluff with his pair + missed straight draw hands,) you often enough to make it a check behind.

I bet ~95-115 OTR.

As played, nice hand.

Yeah, we got owned. But that's poker. And villain made a huge mistake in showing IMO if he plans on playing with you in the future. That one show gives you a much better angle on the guy's overall game, not just in that situation.

Probably should be a separate thread, but here is a Q for OP/rest of you:

Given the info we just picked up, how will you now adjust against this villain?

bet bigger otf/ott for even more value from his draws.
not vb so thinly, or b/c when his line is really weird like in this hand. i mean what is he c/r with otr like that? im not saying i call but now that i know hes capable of c/r bluffing river then im going to still vb thin otr on certain board textures. but on alot of boards im going to go for 2 streets of value when in position otf and ott and oop go for 2 streets either otf/otr or ott/otr.