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2/5NL - Pair + Flush Draw as the aggressor 2/5NL - Pair + Flush Draw as the aggressor

03-06-2012 , 04:06 AM
BB $1200ish - Older man. Seems to be a poor player. He's been at the table for one full orbit and has been involved in only two hands. First hand at the table he called a pre flop raise out of the big blind with 24s and he check and called down three streets on a board of 4779T, he won the pot. A few hands later he limp reraised with AK and won a large pot with trips.

EP $500ish - Weak and tight regular. The type to bet to see where he is at, will seat change into "hot seats." He has been a regular player for the past three years, so maybe he is doing something right. He likely views me as a sharp player, probably gives me to much credit because we are friendly. His opinion of the BB is likely that he just an old dude who is on a heater in his first few hands.

Me MP. $2kish + some bills. To my opponent, I guess my image is a guy who is drinking a beer and has a lot of chips. I have folded every hand since he has sat down, not sure if he is aware or not. The regular likely just views me as solid and reasonable.

PREFLOP
EP limps, I raise Q9 in MP to $25, BB calls, EP calls.

FLOP 3 players $70ish 954
BB checks, EP bets $25, I raise to $75, BB calls, EP folds.

TURN 2 players $250ish 954 4
BB checks, I bet $140, BB calls.

RIVER 2 players $525ish 9344 J
BB checks, I bet $275, BB...

Before the flop I think raising Q9s from MP is fine vs. a poor player in the big blind and a bad regular who has limped.

On the flop, after the EP player leads I feel his range is somewhat narrow. He shouldn't have too many one pair hands, and most he does have I'm ahead of. He can have a few big combo draws, and sets. I raise for value. When the old man in big blind calls, my initial reaction was; crap, I'm going to take this hand 3 ways to the turn and I'm unsure how to play almost every card. But in all reality I am likely ahead of both, right?

Then the EP player folds and we take the turn 2 ways. Considering the previous hands the old man in the BB has played, I'm having a hard time constructing a range for him.

The turn card I think I like, especially when he doesn't c/r me. I felt I was value betting on the turn.

On river, I think betting might have been questionable and maybe downright wrong though. A lot of his range I assumed I was value betting against are hands that are not showdown worthy. So having that said it would seem of the two pairs hands that call the river most have me beat. So what am I trying to get value from?

I also would like to ask about bet sizing, how would anyone size their bets differently and why?
2/5NL - Pair + Flush Draw as the aggressor Quote
03-06-2012 , 04:19 AM
WP up until the river. You're like never betting for value here and I doubt you're getting a J to fold, but wtf could he even get to the river having a J? Jx diamond I suppose but is he calling raise otf? (JJ maybe? Lol. Does he ever play overpairs like this?)

I feel like he has some sort of combo draw here every time(gutter + fd sd+fd etc)
Weaker 9x isn't going to call you especially after you've shown aggression on every street.
It's a spot where you're likely ahead but aren't getting value from worse. Check it back.
2/5NL - Pair + Flush Draw as the aggressor Quote
03-06-2012 , 11:52 AM
With your reads I actually like every street, which is the first time I think I said this on this forum.

At first I thought river should be checked back for SDV. But then with the hand where he stations the guy with 42 I think he will call with worse. T9, 98, 97, maybe 88. The only thing is I would go smaller against this guy, like $175, to widen his range since I don't think he is the type where a small bet induces. The other thing to remember is that bad players like him love to trap. So he can totally have boats in his range, but that's very few combos and doesn't invalidate value betting. Without the 42 hand I definitely check behind on the river.
2/5NL - Pair + Flush Draw as the aggressor Quote
03-06-2012 , 12:10 PM
I think I would check the river. He might be a bad player but I don't think we have a strong enough had to value bet here. Other than that I think you played it good.
2/5NL - Pair + Flush Draw as the aggressor Quote
03-06-2012 , 12:31 PM
Pre is cool

Flop...so far so good

Turn, yes, keep betting into this V.

River, I check back to most, but this guy would call you with 53. Unfortunately, he'd call you with 54 as well. I think I'm betting a little under half the pot here--maybe 200?

His range is massive but I think betting small is probably + EV.
2/5NL - Pair + Flush Draw as the aggressor Quote
03-06-2012 , 03:26 PM
I don't like your sizing on the flop. When the pots gets to you, there is $95 in it, your call makes it $120, and your raise is only $50.
If your raise was to take back the control of the pot IP, the sizing was fine, but here you are raising for value so make it bigger.
Once villain calls your flop reraise OOP still having EP acting behind, calls your turn bet, check back the river. There is not much in his range that you beat, and there is enough if not more in his range that has you beat and is not going anyway
2/5NL - Pair + Flush Draw as the aggressor Quote
03-06-2012 , 04:50 PM
Let me get this straight....villain called preflop, c/c'd the flop, c/c'd the turn, and you have a read that he likes to make hero calls.....and people are advocating a check on the river???

If he had a set, a 4, or 2 pair.....you'll find out on the turn. If he c/r's or donks big on the river, it's an easy fold. His range is way wider than TT/J9.....definitely bet for value. Nice hand.
2/5NL - Pair + Flush Draw as the aggressor Quote
03-06-2012 , 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Backstroker41
Let me get this straight....villain called preflop, c/c'd the flop, c/c'd the turn, and you have a read that he likes to make hero calls.....and people are advocating a check on the river???

If he had a set, a 4, or 2 pair.....you'll find out on the turn. If he c/r's or donks big on the river, it's an easy fold. His range is way wider than TT/J9.....definitely bet for value. Nice hand.
Since you seem to be so shocked about suggestions on checking back the river...

Are we betting the river as a bluff or value?

If value, please assign a range to V where Q9 on a board of 9 344 J is ahead of and share that range with us, since with the exception of a few hands. There is not much we beat.
2/5NL - Pair + Flush Draw as the aggressor Quote
03-06-2012 , 05:42 PM
Given the read op gave of villain, specifically the 24 hand, there is such a myriad of hands we beat that villain might call with that constructing a range for villain is not even necessary. Nh
2/5NL - Pair + Flush Draw as the aggressor Quote
03-06-2012 , 06:12 PM
I disagree about read of Villain. He has only played with villain for one full orbit. Villain has only played 2 hands, which is not typical of bad players. We don't have much information on the 2-4 hand. Villain could have easily had a read on his opponent in that hand (his read turned out to be right). Honestly, it wasn't that scary of a board for 2-4 vs a preflop raiser. He limp re-raised with AK which is definitely not something typical of bad players. Based on the information gathered from one orbit I don't see how we draw to conclusions that this guy is just a bad calling station.
2/5NL - Pair + Flush Draw as the aggressor Quote
03-06-2012 , 06:23 PM
$125 on river. Snap a raise.
2/5NL - Pair + Flush Draw as the aggressor Quote
03-07-2012 , 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Dwans Son
I disagree about read of Villain. He has only played with villain for one full orbit. Villain has only played 2 hands, which is not typical of bad players. We don't have much information on the 2-4 hand. Villain could have easily had a read on his opponent in that hand (his read turned out to be right). Honestly, it wasn't that scary of a board for 2-4 vs a preflop raiser. He limp re-raised with AK which is definitely not something typical of bad players. Based on the information gathered from one orbit I don't see how we draw to conclusions that this guy is just a bad calling station.
I agree/good point.

I actually check back turn and river in this spot.
2/5NL - Pair + Flush Draw as the aggressor Quote
03-07-2012 , 07:47 PM
In the 42 hand, what was the bet sizing like that villain was calling? i.e. was it a small pot or was he calling off a substantial portion of his stack? The reason I ask is that a lot of bad players (which you are calling him by your read) do not think about calling bets in terms of BB's or pot size, but based strictly on the absolute monetary value of the bet. If he was calling fairly small bets in the 42 hand, I am not convinced (yet) that he is going to call off 80BB with a hand that we beat here (I'd watch more closely for hands to come to see just how willing he is to throw a large amount of chips in the pot).

If he was calling big ol' bets with 42, committed most of his stack, then a one way ticket to value town might be in order.
2/5NL - Pair + Flush Draw as the aggressor Quote
03-07-2012 , 07:51 PM
Wp. Honestly I'm probably checking river bec I don't know villian well enough and really want to see what he's flatting me with.
2/5NL - Pair + Flush Draw as the aggressor Quote
03-07-2012 , 08:01 PM
I like the river bet. Villain is calling with 89, 9T, 55-88, A3 and a few hands that beat us (J9-A9, and maybe 45, 34, but you'd think he'd have found a raise with a 4). I think we are ahead of more than 50% of his calling range. I might make it a little bit smaller, though.
2/5NL - Pair + Flush Draw as the aggressor Quote

      
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