History/Table dynamics: It is in the early afternoon on a Tuesday at my local card room. I know and have played with every player at the table. The table consists mostly of 40-60 year old men and one other younger reg whom I am friends with. There is currently a high-hand promotion running, so players are looking to see some flops for cheap. Over all the table is pretty good since all the players play pretty tight passive and will only really raise post flop unless they have it. I have been at the table for about 2-3 hours.

It is also worth noting that the table has agreed to one round of mandatory straddles OTB. This is the only reason I straddled.

Villain 1 BB ($550)
Age: 40s
Sex: M
Ethnicity: White
Reads/Tendencies: I have played with this player the least of anyone at the table, but probably still about 5-10 times. He plays pretty sung for the most part, but is known to be able to raise lighter from late position. He is also capable of acting of reads (ie. bluffing, calling light). Not sure if this occurred before or after this hand, but he 4bet all-in with KQo pre (and showed) after getting 3bet by a LAG player. He stated that he though that the LAG player was FOS, so I'm pretty sure he knows that he was "bluffing".

Villain 2 CO ($265)
Age: 50s
Sex: M
Ethnicity: White
Reads/Tendencies: This guy is a pretty big fish. Your standard recreational player who really doesn't really know much about the game and is just there for fun. He will just hit the call button with most pair type hands and will chase draws for the wrong price. He can also get aggressive in certain spots.

Hero (~$2000) is dealt: Q6
Age: 20s
Sex: M
Ethnicity: White
Image: I have been playing very snug so far this session. This is the first time I have entered a pot with a hand this weak. I have shown down a few hands thus far in the session, all strong hands that won the pot. It also might be worth noting that two of the hands I showed down were flushes that I played passively, got there, and then got paid.

Pre-flop:
Hero straddles OTB to $10, SB calls (loose donk with $700 stack), V1 in BB raises to $35, folds to V2 in the CO who calls, Hero calls, SB folds .

Flop ($108): 246
V1 bets $80, V2 raises All-in for $230 total, Hero calls, V1 calls.

Turn ($798): 8
V1 bets $285 All-in, Hero calls.

River ($1368)...

Thought's on my line? How bad does everyone think my call pre is give the straddle and stack sizes? Also, thoughts on flatting the flop versus shoving? I was thinking that once V2 shoves, he likely has a made hand better than mine anyway (but not always), so I want V1's money in the pot also since I will likely have to improve to win the pot. I have great equity versus something like two over pairs.

Pre is a leak.

Flop is a leak. Fold

Is the flop a leak?

I'm getting 1.82:1 and...

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

903 games 0.066 secs 13,681 games/sec

Board: 2s 4s 6c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.277% 49.94% 00.33% 451 3.00 { Qs6s }
Hand 1: 44.850% 44.52% 00.33% 402 3.00 { KcKd }
Hand 2: 04.873% 04.54% 00.33% 41 3.00 { 9c9h }

I'm about to run the numbers on some more detailed ranges, but I really don't think it is.

Okay, so basically I think that V1 will cbet most of his opening range here. And yes, I also think that V2 is can be in this pot with hands like 75s. I didn't include many non-nut/combo flush draws in his range since I think he would probably flat with those types of hands. Obviously I have a hand like J10ss in really bad shape.

Board: 2s 4s 6c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.712% 42.45% 00.26% 2504824 15242.67 { Qs6s }
Hand 1: 15.753% 15.32% 00.43% 903817 25615.17 { 77+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 41.536% 41.10% 00.43% 2425088 25615.17 { 66+, 44, 22, AsKs, AsQs, AsJs, AsTs, As9s, As8s, As7s, As6s, As5s, As3s, 8s7s, 7s5s, 7s4s, 53s, 4c2c, 4d2d, 4h2h }

Feel free to comment on the ranges I have constructed, as well as any flaws/improvements.

Seems like you are behind


Also 88+ for v1

I'm not sure what thread you are reading, but both sets of ranges that I have posted have the flop as a clear call or raise. Care to elaborate on the part about me being behind?

You're half right. Pre is a fold. Too much equity on the flop to fold. I like a shove on the flop. Put some pressure on the original bettor and maximize fold equity.

A6ss is an easy shove on the flop. But our hand, Q6ss, is really quite weak 3-handed. The reason is quite simple: we are often drawing slim or dead. See, in a 3-handed pot, especially with villain descriptions, at least one villain may very well have a flush draw. If either player has a flush draw, it's probably Kx or Ax, which puts us in very bad shape BECAUSE it's quite likely that the other villain has a made hand that smashes a pair of sixes.

In other words, we have a weak hand in this spot. Sure, if it went bet; call OTF, we could contemplate raising. But even with $35 invested in the pot, this is a fold.

Also, fold PF. Why? Beacuse we just flopped a 'gin' flop with Q6ss, and we still have to fold
The hand is worthless, despite being sooted. It doesn't have the implied odds we need.

I see what you are saying about my hand potentially being in really bad shape versus Axss and KK combined, but this is only one scenario. What about the times when V1 has 99 and V2 has 87ss? Or when they both have an over pair? I have almost all nut flush draws and over pairs included in V2's range as well as many in V1's. In addition, I didn't include flush draws weaker than mine that didn't have straight outs.

Looking back, I do see a few flaws with the ranges I have constructed IMO.

I forgot any combo's of Kxss in V2's range, but If I include Kxss, I should probably include lower possible flush draws. The more I think about this, the less likely I think V2's range is weighted to flush draws. I'm going to toy around with some ranges and see what pops out.

But I think that the truth is that my hand is likely to have great equity against even tight and biased ranges.

Okay, so this is basically where I'm at...

OTF, I have to call $230 to win $108 + $80 + $230 = $418

$418/$230 = 1.817 ~ 1.82

1/(1.82+1) = .3546 x 100 = 35.5%

So we need to have 35.5% equity versus both ranges to make this call profitable. This doesn't take into account that V1 is still left to act behind, although this is a good thing IMO since if he continues it is most likely with and over pair, but that can be discussed later. I have constructed quite strict ranges for both villains in what is likely a worst case scenario...

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

3,905,475 games 0.145 secs 26,934,310 games/sec

Board: 2s 4s 6c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.243% 39.95% 00.29% 1560217 11445.67 { Qs6s }
Hand 1: 20.466% 19.97% 00.50% 779762 19530.17 { 88+, AKs, AsQs, AsJs, AsTs, KsQs, KsJs, AQo+ }
Hand 2: 39.292% 38.79% 00.51% 1514772 19748.17 { 66+, 44, 22, AsKs, AsJs, AsTs, As9s, As8s, As7s, As5s, As3s, KsJs, KsTs, Ks9s, 64s, 53s, 42s }

I still have enough equity to make the call. Can you really still say that I should fold the flop? FWIW I think the above ranges are incorrect since I believe V2 is more likely to shove an over pair than a flush draw.

The call preflop got you in a bad spot. But folding to that board on the flop would only make it worse. My tendency would be to shove on the flop for the reason dream stated. That said, I don't think that line has a great advantage over the one you took. And, for me, a lot of that decision would come down to my reads.

Looks like a snap fold, I think you need to be folding these pre-flop just because spots like this.

As played, you can shove here to make up for the terrible play pre-flop, but you are either ahead slightly or you are drawing. One being the flush or the 2 pair/trips. Really we should never call this pre, you need to be fixing these leaks.