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2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? 2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK?

05-08-2010 , 08:11 AM
Villain is agressive and experienced reg, aware of how tight I have been playing this session. I am UTG and he is on the straddle. Effective is $370, my stack size.

Hero raises to $35 with AKo
Folds around to $10 straddle
Villain calls $25

Flop: K J 7 r
Villain checks
Hero bets $50
Villain raises to $125
Hero calls $75

Turn: K J 7 3 r
Villain shoves for $210
Hero ??

Since he has been aware that I have been playing very snug, I feel that my UTG raise and flop bet/call have signified a ton of strength, yet he does not hesitate to insta-shove when the turn bricks. At the time I thought he showed up with KJ and 77 here a lot. Is there any possibility he value-shoves with KQ? I felt a little uncomfortable getting raised on the flop but I called because I thought the CR was standard with any K he paired.

In hindsight, I think I should've either shoved or folded the flop considering stack size, leaning more towards folding... but that's pretty weak right? I'm a little lost, any thoughts would be appreciated.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-08-2010 , 08:32 AM
So he is never folding anything preflop since he's the straddle right?
Would he 3bet JJ+?
Would this guy play any draw like this? AQ,T9,89,QT?
Have you seen him check raise bluff in similar spots before?

His raise is really small which suggests that he wants you to call it and check rasing a draw here with stacks this shallow is not really a great play. So sure you could fold.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-08-2010 , 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollinHand
So he is never folding anything preflop since he's the straddle right?
Would he 3bet JJ+?
Would this guy play any draw like this? AQ,T9,89,QT?
Have you seen him check raise bluff in similar spots before?

His raise is really small which suggests that he wants you to call it and check rasing a draw here with stacks this shallow is not really a great play. So sure you could fold.
I've seen him flat JJ+ before.

I've played with him many times but I can't recall any particular showdown where he check raised with just a straight draw... combo draws are a different story, he does push those very aggressively so it would have been an easy call on my part if there was a FD on the flop.

If he is playing a straight draw this way, it's hard to believe it'd be with a gutter. QT and T9 were def on my mind but since the way I played my hand really portrayed KQ minimum in his eyes, would he really think he's getting enough FE on the turn with $210 left after I bet/called flop for almost half my stack? The insta shove on a brick turn after I showed this much strength made it really gross.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-08-2010 , 08:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2prus2
I felt a little uncomfortable getting raised on the flop but I called because I thought the CR was standard with any K he paired.
Wtf? if this is true then turn is an instacall. I doubt he is c/r the flop for info with any king then suddenly shutting down on the turn with 2/3pot remaining.

If you are going to fold anywhere in this hand it has to be on the flop, but I think normally call flop and turn is standard in a live game, unless he is a total rock.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-08-2010 , 12:04 PM
Not the easiest call, but still a call imo.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-08-2010 , 02:16 PM
Wow that is a small PFR, if you did that in the games I play in you would of had a family pot with the straddle on. With straddle on you are essentially playing with 5/10 blinds... make it at least $50 PF is not more.

As played I am not sure I can find the call button on the flop, but since you did, you might as well call it all off and hope he is doing this with image/leveling and not KJ.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-08-2010 , 02:47 PM
If villain has any idea of relative hand strengths in this game, we beat no part of his value range on the turn, really.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-08-2010 , 03:27 PM
You gotta call the turn. It sucks because you're gonna be beat a lot, but you still have to call for the price you're getting. He's shoving weaker kings, q10, 98, and bluffs enough here that a call with 2.4:1 is pretty much automatic. If he flopped 2p, you still have 20% equity which isn't terrible.

There's no point to shoving the flop. You get 0 value from a flop shove as you're rarely getting called by worse and always getting better to fold out. Also, flatting the flop induces stacks to get in on later streets when you're way ahead like (hopefully) here.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-08-2010 , 04:42 PM
In most live games of this size, against a solid player in this position, we are behind right from the flop CR.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-08-2010 , 04:55 PM
Once u call the flop the turn changes nothing... Easy call (ur probably losing but u win enough)
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-08-2010 , 06:00 PM
I agree we should call if we call the flop.

I personally lean towards folding the flop, though. A flop raise here is barely ever KQ or KT in my experience, so this really does look like KJ, JJ (which many regs flat OOP) or 77. Considering stack sizes and perceived range of Hero, I think draws are pretty much out of the question here.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-08-2010 , 09:20 PM
Call and hope for an Ace or 3 on the river (which may not even be good enough) cuz I'd say you are likely beat but folding really isn't an option once you called the $75 raise on the flop.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-09-2010 , 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by demarius12
Call and hope for an Ace or 3 on the river (which may not even be good enough) cuz I'd say you are likely beat but folding really isn't an option once you called the $75 raise on the flop.
Hoping for a 3 would mean we think he has J7, which is doubtfull.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-09-2010 , 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by demarius12
Call and hope for an Ace or 3 on the river (which may not even be good enough) cuz I'd say you are likely beat but folding really isn't an option once you called the $75 raise on the flop.
this
.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-09-2010 , 04:09 PM
This sounds nitty, but if you've been playing like a rock and villain is smart - this is a fold on the flop. Villain knows you raised from UTG - meaning it's clear you have a strong hand. Once you bet that big on the flop, he knows you have at least AK. I don't think he would try to bluff you off of that or play KQ in this manner. His bet-sizing is clearly for value. Plus, there's no flush draw out there.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-09-2010 , 04:10 PM
But yes - if you call flop bet - you have to call turn bet. But don't call flop bet is the answer.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-09-2010 , 04:55 PM
Against this type of villain, I expect 2 pair on the flop and would likely fold, although I would absolutely hate doing so...but every time I have seen this line live, the raiser has more than a pair.

The c/r line is not terrible by him, and if he expects you to fire off a c-bet to execute the move, he cannot be too terrible.

Even if he is slow-playing AA, he has you, and as much as I would hate to do it, I would fold the turn, and the flop unless you have a read that he will do this with any K (I have run into this before, and every single time, the villain shut down on the turn and river)

An example of when I call the flop


Friday night, a LAG was on my left, and he c/red two of my previous c-bets, which I folded with air. I then get dealt AQ and am treated to a AT8 flop. Villain checks, I bet out, villain raises to 3x, and I call. Turn bricks, villain checks, I bet for value, villain folds.

Notice that the villain did not shove, and he was a good LAG who picked his spots--I think he is only leading the turn for value.

Last edited by IWearSportsJerseys; 05-09-2010 at 05:10 PM.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-09-2010 , 05:08 PM
Tough to do, but folding on the flop seems right. the only hand you beat is q10. If its not that you could hope for kq. Once the flop bet is called it is probably a call though.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-09-2010 , 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flip2win
But yes - if you call flop bet - you have to call turn bet. But don't call flop bet is the answer.
+1

And you are probably beat--but too big a pot to your hand/stacksize to fold.

To make this more painful, a good aggressive villain will start bluff c/r on flops if he sees folds from you on this kinda flop.

Bad spot in the immediate hand, and very possibly bad for your metagame image.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-09-2010 , 05:45 PM
call -- smells like villain is trying to push you off due to your image tbh, he's invested in the hand coz he is taking the straddle

don't fold at any time don't raise just call him down until the stacks are in
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote
05-09-2010 , 08:14 PM
I'm not one for folding TPTK with less than 100bb's, but I think it's obvious that you have at least AK in this hand when you bet out. If he is a smart regular, he would not bluff you or value bet worse (like KQ) in this spot. Your range is super-strong and a smart player generally doesn't try to induce hero folds.
2/5NL Live KJ73- OK to fold TPTK? Quote

      
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