UTG bets $20 I am UTG +1 with KK and raise to $65 cut off makes it $265 and UTG folds. I have approximately $600 behind and cut off has me covered I have no reads on him I just got moved to the table 10 minutes before. What is the proper play here against an unknown opponent.

ship...

also inb4trolling

to be helpful look at the below stoves...even if you know villain will only 4-bet QQ+ shoving is +EV due to the dead money in the pot.

facepalm

i lol at all the typical responses here. i was hoping to see a bunch of ridiculous replies like LOL, ship it obv, and im sure more would come if i didnt step in. (they still probably will anyways)

anyone who thinks this is a typical 100% snap shove easy game is seriously off their ass.

when i sit at a table i assume players are typical bad until proven otherwise. this means they call too much, they are too passive, they do not get value well from medium strength hands.

what it doesnt mean is that they have a wide range to COLD 4b an UTG raise and an UTG+1 3b from an unknown!!!! getting it in pre with KK is very standard against a raise/4b from the same opponent. a cold 4b is very different because hes basically saying i dont care what either of you have. a raise/4b line only needs to beat one hand where a cold4b players range needs to increase twofold.

saying this is a standard shove just shows that you are not thinking about anything beyond your own hand strength, just like the fish do. im not saying i would fault anyone for getting it in here, but saying its an easy play is just not true. the majority of players are not cold 4b'ing QQ and even some of the ones that are are not cold 4b'ing and UTG and UTG+1 raise and 3b.

come on guys think about the hand a bit

Well I'm going to say this isn't true where I play 1/2-2/5...If you want to assume that a unknown 2/5 player will only cold 4-bet AA and KK here then yes folding is correct. Not really been the case for me though...

what hands do you find cld 4b unknowns

furthermore, what hands do you find cold 4b unknowns who raised UTG and 3b UTG+1. an UTG raise is pretty damn strong, to 3b that raise is so insanely strong in itself. a cold 4b here is so polarized. if someone is doing it with QQ they are beyond awful, not saying they arent but i dont give them that much credit for it as the majority of players call here with QQ because they dont want to get shipped on

i played like 15 hours last week, not a ton of hands, but i saw one cold 4b over those 15 hours. it was by me with AA. its just so infrequent. if you see it often why are you not table changing. if you like high variance style of play then i guess thats fine. i like sitting there and value betting fish who cant fold middle pair, and everytime they raise me they have 2 pair plus. much easier then a guy who cold 4bs on the reg

you do realize that a cold 4b is totally different and miles ahead range wise of a standard 4b.

not sure if you mean what you think you mean. i see plenty of people make a standard 4b with JJ/QQ often

I'd look at two or three things and try to pick up a physical tell.

Are his chip stacks very very neat or scattered uneven and messy?

Is he drinking water, beer or a cocktail?

Is he frozen, moving talking etc?

There are a couple of other things to consider. If he is 4 betting AK or JJ we can probably get his money before he leaves the game. If he has AA we're F'ed for another 100 BBs in most cases. Not a snap call for me without a tell. I rarely take enough time to get the clock called but on this one I may.

GS

I know what you are saying, but I just don't give ppl at 1/2 and in my limited experience 2/5 credit for thinking that in depth. They see QQ or AK and will 4-bet/call even cold after a UTG raise and UTG+1 3-bet ...this may be because I play in a room known for ridiculous action idk...last session some donk cold 4-bet AQs to a UTG+1 raise and a MP min 3-bet, this was 1/2 but still...If this was a reg player, I could see playing it different and you could convince me to fold against a nit, but not against an unknown at these stakes...well let me re-phrase that not against an unknown in my room. If the level is competition was more competent then I guess my answer would be different. Would be interesting to see what ppl from different rooms think though...

yeah its very player dependent. but i see people tighten up so much with QQ and JJ when in that spot, because well 3b'ing pre is hardly happening at these games, let alone an opportunity to 4b.

ime 90% of the time there is a 4b pre it is AA, in my loose passive games at least

I ship. CO could have AK.... lmao


btw, I have seen a 4bet/fold to 5bet like ONCE in the past month (at 2/5 & 5/5 limits) lol. Never seen it at 1/2 EVAR.

In my live game experience, if a player 3b/4b, the size of the bet really matters. I have seen sooooo many times that AA/KK would go 130 there, praying that both players call. This is obviously due to how weak the play is.

But just like others have said how often do you see a 4b on a weak 2/5 table.

^^^^ yeah, but at the same time I have seen people raise HUGE with AA just because they want to make sure that they commit preflop and 'don't get sucked out on'.

I have seen this girl make it like $215 after a $35 raise at a 5/5 game pre with her KK. Or make it 275 after a $50 raise + call at a 5/10.

Idk how you dont shove there, in the 2-5 game i play, id always shove there. If he has aces he has aces, oh well, the cage is right there.

^^^^ its not online 6max, its not as aggressive of a game, meaning a 4b, and furthermore a cold 4b is super rare, and out of those super rare times, its super rare that its a hand other then AA/KK