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2/5NL Hero called flop and turn, now call river? 2/5NL Hero called flop and turn, now call river?

05-21-2012 , 01:52 PM
History/Table dynamics: 2/5NLHE $1000 max buy-in. I have only been at the table for about 30-40 minutes and have been playing very tight due to the likely amount of action I will get no matter how few hands I play. The table is playing loose with most pots being straddled, going 4-5 ways.

Villain 1 BB ($900)
Age: 40s
Sex: M
Ethnicity: White
Reads/Tendencies: This is the first time I have ever played with this player before, although his reputation precedes him. Known by other players as "The Bully", this guy is your basic reg-fish-whale. Made of money and plays the game strictly for a good time. He plays in only the biggest games at the card room I play at (usually at least 5-10-25). He and Cadillac Williams (former Tampa Bay Bucs and St. Louis Rams running back, mini-brag, super nice guy BTW) are playing 2/5 while they wait for a bigger PLO game to start later in the day, making for some good action.

This guy is basically one of two very soft spots in the bigger games, (that I hope to play in one day) so I have been paying extra attention to his actions so I can get a good read. In the first 30-40 minutes, I have seen him slow-play flopped trips in a multi-way pot, as well as just call with a flush draw on two occasions (he ran good and was playing a lot of hands). This being the case, I know they don't call him the bully for no reason... I immediately make the assumption that this guy will tend to slow-play his big hands and come out firing big with his bluffs and semi-bluffs.

Hero CO ($1000) is dealt: AQ
Age: 20s
Sex: M
Ethnicity: White

Pre-flop:
UTG+1 limps, Hero raises to $25, SB calls, Villain call, UTG+1 calls.

Note this is the first time that I have raised since I have been at the table, not sure if anyone noticed.

Flop ($93): 10JJ
SB checks, Villain Bets $75, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, SB folds.

When he donks out big into this multi-way pot on this relatively dry board, I basically remove Jx from his range. I put him on some sort of weakish 1 pair type hand, a straight draw, or just and air-ball.

Turn ($243): 2
Villain bets $175, Hero calls.

The turn seemingly doesn't change much at all. But now he seems more desperate to get me to fold, so I'm thinking that 10x is less likely.

River ($593): 8
Villain bets $500...

After he makes his river bet, I ask him "So do you have a big hand? or just KQ?" and he responds with "I can't comment". I then ask him If he will show me if I fold, to which he doesn't respond at all and just stares at the table. FWIW this guy had been quite talkative for the majority of the time at the table, whether he was in a hand or not. Should I be making anything of this reaction?

Ugly river... Q9 got there, 98 got there, and I am still losing to all his small PPs that he probably thinks are no good. I can only beat KQ and air and now I have to call off an additional $500 to see if I am right... His bet sizing gives me the impression that he desperately wants me to fold, but I can't even beat half of his bluffs.

Any thoughts on the hand would be appreciated. Especially any comments on a raise somewhere along the line in order to avoid a situation like this If I actually want to go with my read that he is weak.

In b4 "fold flop".
2/5NL Hero called flop and turn, now call river? Quote
05-21-2012 , 03:42 PM
If I ignore the wall of text, you seem like you called the flop with a gutshot, decided to bluff catch vs a 2/3 PSB OTT when you bricked, then want to stop bluff catching facing another nearly PSB OTR.

So "fold flop" seems like the best analysis.
2/5NL Hero called flop and turn, now call river? Quote
05-21-2012 , 05:09 PM
You don't need to beat half his bluffs, only 1/3 of them. Based on your description he's bluffing here just about always. It's probably a call but I don't know if I make it in the heat of the moment.
2/5NL Hero called flop and turn, now call river? Quote
05-21-2012 , 05:17 PM
i guess the only bluff we can beat is KQ. would be sick if he shows Akdd...
2/5NL Hero called flop and turn, now call river? Quote
05-21-2012 , 05:43 PM
Fold flop
Fold turn
Fold river

I think your alternate line is to raise the flop if your read is that he doesn't have a J.

If you think the guy is a reg-fish and potentially a huge spot, why are you trying to hero call him when even the bottom part of his air has you beat on the river? Seems silly...
2/5NL Hero called flop and turn, now call river? Quote
05-21-2012 , 05:46 PM
He has enough buffs in his range to call, but I hate that 8.

I'm on the fence between a call or a shove. Would this guy fold an 8?

As played I really hate that you opened your mouth and hurt your ability to bluff. Seriously just don't talk...

As played and because you spoke, I think we just call. If you didn't talk, I'd go for the classic sigh woe-is-me all-in shove to fold out his 8 or even underpairs.

But yeah, this guy has more than enough air in his range to call.
2/5NL Hero called flop and turn, now call river? Quote
05-21-2012 , 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgiharris
As played I really hate that you opened your mouth and hurt your ability to bluff. Seriously just don't talk...

As played and because you spoke, I think we just call. If you didn't talk, I'd go for the classic sigh woe-is-me all-in shove to fold out his 8 or even underpairs.
+1. That's the first thing I thought . When the draw is an obv FD that misses, it's alot easier to make a hero call with AQ high. So, that's the time you can talk to get a read from his reaction

But, in this given hand, isn't reshoving>calling as he has a T an 8 or a mid pocket pair more times than KQ/absolute air? The only problem is villain has committed himself, so reshoving is only $125 more for him which I don't think a "rich whale" is going to fold for.

If your read is he is FOS or has a weak PP, I would have raised turn to $400 and shoved river....or given up on the turn. AQ is a great bluff catching hand, even by turn. However, you have to dodge alot of cards come river (basically, any 7,8,9,T,Q,K) not to mention some of his other set outs for his PPs.
Given the stack sizes, you want to have wiggle room to push him off before any cards come that would improve his hand
2/5NL Hero called flop and turn, now call river? Quote
05-21-2012 , 07:53 PM
raise turn and shove river imo
2/5NL Hero called flop and turn, now call river? Quote
05-21-2012 , 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by endodocdc
+1. That's the first thing I thought . When the draw is an obv FD that misses, it's alot easier to make a hero call with AQ high. So, that's the time you can talk to get a read from his reaction

But, in this given hand, isn't reshoving>calling as he has a T an 8 or a mid pocket pair more times than KQ/absolute air? The only problem is villain has committed himself, so reshoving is only $125 more for him which I don't think a "rich whale" is going to fold for.

If your read is he is FOS or has a weak PP, I would have raised turn to $400 and shoved river....or given up on the turn. AQ is a great bluff catching hand, even by turn. However, you have to dodge alot of cards come river (basically, any 7,8,9,T,Q,K) not to mention some of his other set outs for his PPs.
Given the stack sizes, you want to have wiggle room to push him off before any cards come that would improve his hand
Man I'm missing all kinds of stuff lately, I thought both side were a bit deeper but you're right, V only has $125ish left

In any event, I still go for a shove.
2/5NL Hero called flop and turn, now call river? Quote
05-21-2012 , 10:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scelsi
If I ignore the wall of text, you seem like you called the flop with a gutshot, decided to bluff catch vs a 2/3 PSB OTT when you bricked, then want to stop bluff catching facing another nearly PSB OTR.

So "fold flop" seems like the best analysis.
Yeah, that would be the analysis that most people would give if they simply ignored the reasons WHY I played the hand the way I did. I guess next time I'll just say that villain is "LAG" and then have everyone tell me that he has Jx and that I'm a total idiot for even considering a call. What actually happened is that I decided on the flop to bluff catch this player and the river brought a really bad card. Now I am seeking advice to avoid this situation, while still not folding the best hand. I suggest that next time you open a thread and see what you describe as a "wall of text", just close it and move on to the next thread so you don't waste any of anyone's time.

Quote:
Fold flop
Fold turn
Fold river

I think your alternate line is to raise the flop if your read is that he doesn't have a J.

If you think the guy is a reg-fish and potentially a huge spot, why are you trying to hero call him when even the bottom part of his air has you beat on the river? Seems silly...
Because my read is that one of his biggest leaks its bluffing big and too much. I also may not get another chance to play with this player at these stakes since he almost never plays this low. Obviously ide much rather have AA, A10, or some other hand that can beat all his bluffs that made/already were a pair, but sometimes things just don't work out that way.

As for the others commenting on my saying something after his river bet, I didn't immediately speak up. I also understand that I can no longer bluff shove once I have spoken and wouldn't have said anything if I thought that were a viable option. With the stack sizes in this hand, I pretty much ruled out a bluff shove OTR since I think he will call with almost any pair getting like 10:1 or whatever it is.
2/5NL Hero called flop and turn, now call river? Quote
05-21-2012 , 10:36 PM
My honest opinion would have been to raise the turn. Flop raise would actually look weak to someone like this. Then you can jam the river if you want to continue the bluff or he checks the river and you can check behind most likely having the best hand. As played I don't like a call here as like others said even alot of his bloffing range has you beat
2/5NL Hero called flop and turn, now call river? Quote

      
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