This hand has always bothered me and I was never sure if I made the right decision. Should I call or fold?

9 handed both me and the villain have $500 to start the hand

Hero: BB Q6o
Villain(He is a rock strictly by the book player): UTG+1
Villain 2: Button, unknown
9 Players see the flop. Pot:$45

FLOP:Q 10 6 Rainbow.

I check, Villain bets the pot, button calls, I call.

Pot: $175

Turn: K (still only 1 of each suit on the board)

I check, Villain bets the pot $175, Button Calls, I call

River: Q

I check, Villain goes all in for $225.

Do I call or do I fold?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

The hands you lose to:
- KK - seems pretty unlikely that the "by the book" player doesn't raise with this hand
- KQ - possible
- QT - also seems unlikely that he would limp UTG+1

What hands would you beat that might be betting like this:
- TT
- 66
- Qx
- AA - (also unlikely for same reason as KK)

Seems like the TT and 66 are most likely given early limp, and there are more hands that you beat than you lose to. Pot is offering good odds and you have a big hand. Call.

Bet the flop yourself. I'd fold the turn as played, as I don't think this player is ever potting the turn here with a hand that you beat.

River is pretty much the best card in the deck for you, so if you're folding here you should definitely be folding the turn. You're getting a bit over 4:1 on a call, and V can certainly be shoving a hand like TT or 66 for value here, so I wouldn't fold now.

you might have won but i dont like your hand at any point here. you could have gotten away at all the streets except maybe the river and likely if you win you beat 10,10.

but i would expect to see Q, 10 from him.

I assume button folded river?

Really need to fold turn when a rock pots it and gets called in front of you. Never ahead here. River is a miracle card and you need to call having made it this far, as you now beat 1010.

Call and change tables
Nine people limp to the flop and the only one betting is the rock. You better have a plan or the nuts before calling down. Don't be the guy turning $5 flops into V's car payments.

Thinking a couple streets ahead can improve your game a lot

I see rocks in these games limp KK all the time. They don't have an EP raising range. It's limp-call or limp reraise

Fold turn.

Definitely folding ott. Probably betting otf instead of checking as well.

These are my thoughts.

bet flop, fold turn, call river.

If you look at it from V's perspective - it feels like a fold OTR (or sooner).

Pre. Limped 9 way and you are in BB - so no info for V.
Flop. V sees you calling PSB from UTG+1 rock. He likely gives you at least 1p or good straight draw.
Turn. V sees you call a PSB again from rock. He likely has you on made straight, 2p or set.
River. V likely makes boat. He's no longer concerned about made straights - but will be aware the river likely made other boat(s). Yet he pushes. I don't think he;s
even doing this with TT. Likely KK slowplayed or KQ - maybe QT on a loose limp.

Having said all that... if you do get this far - you have no option but to call. Mistake was OTT

My goal in this session was to really concentrate on my hand reading ability. When he led out on the flop with 6 people behind him, I knew he had to have a queen. I didn't feel based on his play he would bet on the come, so a draw was out. I also didn't think he would limp with a pair preflop and clearly if he didn't bet preflop, he wouldn't have led the flop with any pair that was beating him. So I put him on a queen, but what queen? My read was AQ, KQ QJs were all probably raises for him preflop. QJo, Q 10 and possibly but very unlikely, Q9 were limps preflop. So the most likely hands he had on the flop were either QJ or Q10. I think I have to call on the flop.

When the Turn is a king and he pots it again, he either has Q 10 or my read was wrong and he has KQ, AJ or J9. In any event I am not beating anything at that point and clearly I should have folded, but I got stubborn. Of course the river brings the worse possible card in the deck for me, a queen.

I think for a while, holding my cards out far enough so the people on my left and right can see them and I say " I call show me queen 10" and of course he rolls Q10. Most people were amazed I knew what he had, but it wasn't that hard. It was like he was playing with his cards face up. I just couldn't lay it down. I made a horrible mistake, not on the river but on the turn, as everyone has said.

Ray and everyone else you are a 1000% right and I should have folded the turn.

Thank you so much to everyone who replied to my post. Having things to bounce off other people is invaluable.

Thanks!

the mistake was on the flop

How would you have played the flop? Raise?

Thanks!

bet

good thread here mike.
you do give him too wide a range in his betting on the flop. no abc player is betting into 9 players with just a queen here. no one in their right mind is either.
so in reality he has to have 2 pair or trips or a draw. and betting a draw isnt a bad play as you do get to break any callers if you hit next card along with a chance you win it on the flop. he likely by his play doesnt bet draws so you can eliminate that. but that is a dangerous assumption if playing deep.

so really you can dump this hand on the flop and not lose any money here. this is what helps move you up to the higher levels of the game. as losing nothing versus a ton on big pots where you are beat is the key.

it is so easy to say that was a cooler. or i had to go broke with this hand, but most cases by thinking about how it is going to come down you can get away. this is one of those.

also we all need a plan of how the hand is going to be played all the way through. and making crying calls all the way down is rarely good and usually losing the hand.

thanks for the good thread.

It is a mistake IMO to consider folding the river.

Your description of vil isn't good enough IMO. He is a rock and limping UTG+1? I don't get that. Is there tons of non raised family pots preflop that he would limp with KQ, Q10, 1010, 66 hoping to hit big and get paid?




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From my perspective a "rock" isn't limping KQ UTG+1. He's raising or folding, so I don't really put him on KQ, so you're either WAWB on the flop against either QT or QJ. As played I personally am never finding a fold on the river.

Edit: the more i think about it, the harder I find it for him to limp QJ/QT UTG+1 if he truly is a rock.

I am sure I am not describing it right. But I do believe he was a rock, just not a very good player. He was in his late 50's or early 60's and everything he had done to that point had been very tight and a lot of limping.

I never put him on a set based on his previous play. I felt if he had a pair he would have bet it preflop and not limp. I think everyone is assuming he was postionally aware and thought about the strength of his hand in relation to his position and the strength of his cards against his opponents. I really believe he was playing Q10 UTG +1 because he thought that was a good hand no matter what position he was in.

To be honest, I was not even looking at him when he bet and snapped my head up when he did, that was how shocked I was that he led out.

To clear up one matter, I was planning on check raising whoever bet the flop, but when he bet I thought it was the best move to just call behind.

I know I have a lot to learn, but I do have a very hard time folding this hand, to this player on the flop. I should have folded the turn but clearly I was not good enough to do that.

Thanks again for everyone's post.

Thanks!

Based on this description rock isn't the right term. A "rock" is a solid player for the most part i.e. plays select few starting hands from EP and opens that range as he gains position. I don't even know if I'd call him weak tight, because QT from UTG+1 isn't particularly tight, but that's the closest I guess.

We all have a lot to learn, that's why we're here. This is a great post, truly one of the more interesting spots I've seen posted lately.

I lead flop,while KK is discounted,nits limp this in EP all day.Making is possible,I like bet,bet,bet as played it's a shrug call.

This and this.

Multiway limped flops = a terrific or a terribad night. Depending on how often your flopped 2 pair gets called by worse. OTT you have one pair and barely a bluff catcher.

River call as played, now you have a showdown monkey image for the rest of the night (show if he beats you to discourage them bluffing ypu later... maybe).

Checking on the flop isn't a mistake so much as a different strategy. Going for a c/r here is perfectly fine. With so many players it is unlikely to check around.

The fact that we don't c/r when our hand has the most absolute strength kinda shows what the problem is here. We know we are bear on the flop so we don't raise. Then we know we are beat on the turn but call anyway. Then we bunk the best/worst river and call with dread.

That pretty much sums up how badly I played the hand. No argument here.

Thanks!

Leading on the flop>check calling otf> c/r otf.

I don't think we have the reads that suggest that c/r would be good here. While check calling isn't ideal to me, c/r seems just as bad or maybe a little bit worse. It's interesting though because by checking here otf we actually end up putting ourselves in a spot vs a rock that helps us play perfectly against him. Whereas if we are betting the flop, villain calls, and then ott we have to decide between check/calling or betting again which I think may not be so good. By Checking otf we let rock villain play his hand face up(might be results oriented b/c of the Q turn but I feel like "rocks" generally wont pot it there with a hand we are ahead of) giving us a great opportunity to fold ott when he pots it. Do we have any showdowns on "rock" villain? I mean whats his range otf when he pots it? This would probably help us come up with a better line.

As played, if we get to the river here I dont think I am ever finding a fold unless rock villain tells me to or gives off some other absurd obvious tell. Hopefully villain had TT and we are awesome.