he flat the river?

no he turbo mucked.

yeah like the big issue is that any hand that is checking behind OTR is folding to a bet OTR

I don't like this thought process as it is a bit MUBSy.

If your villain was a nit, then absolutely, we should fear a 4-bet shove. But go back and read your villain description. Tricky LAGGY player types will often level themselves w a 4-bet shove if we give them enough rope to hang himself.

Lets look at exactly what are the benefits of being a LAG. The benefits of being a LAG is that your range is so wide that many villains will often put you on a weaker hand than you actually have. Many players will over value TPGK vs a LAG and stack off with TPGK whereas that same player would never stack off with TPGK vs a nit... but against a LAG, absolutely...

So, when a LAG has TPTK or an overpair or 2p in this spot he will often think he is ahead of your raising or 3-bet range and so if he 4-bet shoves on you its not "only" going to be with the stone cold nuts. It will often be with strong hands that your set is still going to dominate...

Then factor in that a LAG will make moves and his aggressive nature will lead him to spazz out and shove over the top of you with a semi-bluff or even sometimes air (gotta love ego).

Basically, reading your post and the way you played this hand, I think you may have a leak in your game. Specifically, I think you may not properly be maximizing your EV against aggro or thinking aggro players that have a lot of air in their range.

I may disagree "somewhat" with 11t's line but I acknowledge that 11t's line does a decent job of exploiting the "air" that V has in his range.

So the question I have for you is: "how do you go about playing aggro players who may have air in their range?"

How would your line differ between a thinking LAGGY player vs a typical aggro donk in this spot?

So the thing that you have against Laggy players is that they barrel to much with a weak range, they make there money by putting people in awkward spots and reading hands very well.

So the most optimal thing to do here is give them enough rope to hang themselves, what would you say your donk lead out range is here? Most Jx, TT, 99, sets, draws and air? If so I like the lead out, but after that to hide info from the lag (who make there money reading hands as stated above) I would c/c turn and then c/r river. The c/c turn still keeps your range wide under pairs, top pair, draws and sets but gets rid of air. I would never expect a lag to check back this river with a lot of his range so I would almost always c/r here to get max value.

This is very player dependent but lets say you lead 70 flop, c/c 200, if you lead the river as a blocker bet for 150ish do you think you can get him to spaz here? I think that if you have history with guy and blocker bet him otr a couple times with your typical marginal hands, I think this is a great spot to try and get a spaz.

I like the first way to play it as standard, but the second gets max value if he is the right player type

Ok so to answer the bolded i would say, in this spot, thats the problem. I dont ever think this player, against me, ever has complete air when he 4bet/gets it in on the turn.

Against a typical aggressive donk i am getting the money in as fast as possible.

Good Thread.

My first inclination was nh original poster but then a number of knowledgable posters were saying check-raise the river.

I spent some time trying to come up with a range of hands that get to the river and would call a bet but check behind if we checked. I really couldn't come up with many.

I guess villain could have T8 occasionally that raises from MP1 and floats the flop, hits gin on the turn and raises but gets scared of the paired board on the river and checks behind but with villain's description that seems really far-fetched.

Any other hand villain can have pretty much has to bet the river if it is strong enough to call a bet on the river. I know I'm not really adding to the discussion but wanted to say that this is one of the better threads I've read in a while.

Getting value on the river is so important because of the way the pot grows; my default line is always to bet and I would rather be wrong by betting too thinly. This thread reminds me that when playing decent lags I have to think more and not just autopilot.

What's the difference between a LAG and a typical player in this spot??? I think you may be conflated the two.

A LAG will show up on river with a horrendously wide range of hands to include a fair amount of air or weaker hands he will try to turn into a bluff if we give him the chance.

The hands he checks back in this spot will be a lot of middling type hands, the rare overpair, or X% of the time he just gives up and surrenders his bricked draw.

Against most player types, I completely agree, bet river for value... But a LAG will have a lot of air/busted draws in his range and or hands that are weak that he will turn into a bluff. So its not a bad line to c/c or c/r river as that will usually be the more profitable line vs an opponent whose range contains a lot of air or has a lot of hands he will turn into bluffs...