i missed flop was monotone. id lean more towards a check fold than a check call then, depends on sizing. either way its a check though, betting is awful.

Even more divided than last street. Interesting. I notice from this discussion that when I'm not sure what to do, I default to aggression, especially against better players. I'm not sure, but I suspect that it's an attempt to make it difficult to for me to get lost in a hand and more difficult/dangerous for V to exploit. I don't think that I take it to the level of spewy, but I definitely lean towards betting.

At any rate, the next action:
Pot: $185
Flop Qd5d4d

Hero bets $150. V tanks a bit, but nowhere near as long as pre-flop, and goes all-in.
$280 to call, which will be 27% of the pot.

Hero?

Hero folds.

Well V should have all smaller pairs with diamond redraw in his range, plus AdKx. I'd snap if we had 9d in our hand, probably can't fold here after putting in half our stack when his shoving range is wider with the diamonds out. It's pretty close. Don't like your flop sizing though.

half pot if you are going to cbet, but checking is much better.

turbo fold

Was concerned that half-pot would leave V too much FE on a semi-bluff with one high diamond. It felt like a half-pot bet would be an invitation to take the pot away. I'd def rather check than 1/2 pot it. What are the advantages (aside from "getting away cheaper when we fold") of the 1/2 pot bet on this board?

with the queen out there its very unlikely that villain has any diamonds which arent going to get all in. the majority of villains flatting hands that arent suited are going to be in the kqo aqo range so most of his big diamonds have a pair to go with it. if he flatted ak for whatever reason thats getting in as well with a fd. jj probably also. your read made me think hes likely to fold hands like kqo and ajo though, so it seems unlikely to me that he has many naked flush draws at all. if he is calling with all of these, preflop is a flat and not a good spot to 3bet.

so you are betting the flop mostly in the hopes that villain flopped absolutely no equity and folds which a half pot bet accomplishes the same as a bigger bet.

I like the 3b pre. I don't think giving the lag control of the pot is optimal at all especially OOP. I would be more likely to flat IP. Flop I c-bet for sure . Once he jams it depends how Laggy he is, but I don't see that many draws he can have so lean towards a fold. Expect competent player to fold AJo pre so his draws basically consist of AK with a diamond. Then he probably jams all AQ, flushes and sets for value. So I fold but I'm on my phone and didn't equilab it. Probably worth doing

I understand the logic of the 3-bet pre, and I think I would have done it myself in this spot.

But after reading the various responses here, I think I would change my own play here and agree with flatting and going into a station-y type mode against this villain.

As played, I too would have c-bet as a bet/fold. I think it's too likely that when villain goes all in here, he has AQ or KQ with the Ad or Kd (or even without diamonds; we're still crushed), than other hands. There are also various combos of AK (dd or with one or the other a d) that we are again either totally dominated by or a marginally slight favorite.

The other thing to think about, and it's on my mind because I just recently listened to a podcast about it, is whether you play in a capped game or not. If your buy-in is a 100BB capped game, and you're in a close spot, maybe you should lean towards calling to see if you can build up to a 200, 300, or even 400BB stack. The image you project with a large chip stack and, potentially, the plays you can make later in the session against other big stacks may be able to make up for the perhaps slightly negative EV situation you put yourself in by calling on this hand. And especially if losing your first BI won't affect you mentally/tilt you, then it may be worth it. Just a thought.

Personally, since I'm a variance nit, I probably fold as played.

Fold fold fold.

Calling it off because "you could be ahead of a diamond draw and there is already so much in the pot" is wrong and not thinking in terms of ranges. You are basically lucky if you happened to run into him only holding one naked diamond, which is the bottom of his AI range. He has many other hands that all have you crushed. Overall, black 9s are doing really terrible here.

Also, you dont need to bet that much otf. You can bet a little less and achieve the same thing. As long as you bet at least 2/3, betting more isn't going to get you more FE that you dont already have with these stack sizes.

I'm 50:50 on flatting vs. 3-betting. Honestly, I lean towards flatting. If I'm going to go to battle with the good LAG, I'm going to do it in position. There are other spots/opponents to win money from. Pick your battles. Letting the LAG play with position against you in a big pot is a mistake w a marginal hand. You are letting him play in his comfort zone. He thrives on making your life miserable OOP, don't let him.

If I did choose to 3-bet, I'd bet a little smaller on the flop and fold to the raise.

Interesting hand. My takeaway is the reminder to choose to go to battle when you have an advantage, with either cards or position. OOP w 99 vs this tough, aggressive V seems like an iffy spot to look to put a lot of chips in the pot.

You haven't made any kind of case for why betting is awful.

If we bet and fold out TT/JJ with no diamond, that's great. If we bet and fold out AxJd, that's great. If we bet and fold out, 8x8d/7x7d/6x6d, that is also great.

Please explain why betting is awful.

AP, I think betting is the only choice on the flop. We 3-bet OOP so AdAx, KdKx, AdK, AKd are a big part of our range. 3-betting then giving up without a c-bet seems like the worst possible line to me.

I really hate that the stack sizes are such that any bet creates the perfect situation for villain to raise all-in.

Did you at all consider whether your opponent was aggressive enough to make CRAI an option?

I considered it, but I was frankly afraid to give a free card and to give up the initiative. I rarely get to play 2/5, so I'm still feeling my way in it to an extent.

i find that way too many live poker players are extremely obsessed with initiative for almost no good reason.

Why are so many live NLHE players scared of giving up the initiative against Villains who don't even know how to play with the initiative appropriately?

In this example, Villain seems to be an auto cbet monkey, so it is extremely likely that he falls under the umbrella of Villains who don't know how to play appropriately with the initiative.

I think people forget that we are often playing with Larry, Curly, and Moe...not Phil Ivey, Tom Dwan, and Phil Galfond. The good thing about playing with Larry, Curky, and Moe...is that they suck at playing with the initiative. So let them have the initiative.

Weird I almost don't think he'd do this with just a queen, makes me want to call. Would be call pre with qjo or kqo? I would discount those. May be time for a hero call

I think you have him beat at the moment. He may have a big diamond draw, but I don't see KQ in his range, no sets, dont think he has a made flush. I call this.

There are a few posts itt that echo my thoughts, but I think this one is the most clear.

It is interesting how concerned with winning the pot this forum is as opposed to making the most money. I'm surprised anyone who has played enough poker to discuss it on the internet would even consider 3betting here as a default.

As played I just throw out a weak-ass 100 or so, or c/f. C/c or c/r are both pretty terrible.

so all you c/f and b/f guys are letting this guy off anytime he raises with no pair but a diamond higher than a 9?

Right now, we are beat by a set (not likely at all), a Q (possible) a made flush (no way) or an overpair (possible...makes the pre-flop hesitation make no sense, but maybe he is hollywooding?)

I think you call and if he hits his diamond it is what it is, but for now i think you are good

yay let's throw good money after bad!

From the description in the OP, why shouldn't villain c-bet so much at this table? It's been working for him. The OP said this:

In the post below he said villain only played 1 hand that went past the flop when he c-bet. So I don't think it's clear that villain doesn't know what he is doing. We don't want to overestimate our villains, but we don't want to underestimate them either.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...7&postcount=48

I don't think people are so concerned with trying to win every pot. I'm not even sold on the idea that flatting pf is even profitable. We will be up against a decent lag player while OOP with a marginal hand and we won't be in a good situation to set mine.

If you play correctly, sometimes you get bluffed.