We really think this dude is shutting it down w/ K7, Q7, J7, T7 in a game where its standard for dudes to cold call w/ underpairs to the board OTF?

Turn bet or check call yes.

Turn check raise and get it all in no.

And my play is no where standard. It's once a session play.

FPS - Fancy Play Syndrome.

I use this line vs weak players who c-bet to often and don't like aggression. It only comes up once or twice per session but it has been very successful for quite some time. I try to minimize fancier lines vs level 2 thinkers who are good. Where I play (Borg) there are way more shallow players then good ones, so why get yourself in a tough spot when there are easier ones.

comments more than welcome
I do understand the comment of not bluffing a bad player (as this makes you a bad player).

I would be very interested in discussions on when this line is max +EV and when to avoid using it.

WP sir. Obviously, you won the hand since the normal line would have been to fold on the flop and you wouldn't be justifying your call if you had lost the hand, which is similar to that one where the guy called all the way to the river with AJ high and won. Hands like these belong in BBV. I'm not sure what kind of input you are expecting. Okay, so the table dynamics were such that you felt floating with 33 was a good move and it paid off this time. Congrats. But you are engaging in results oriented thinking if you think that this type of play is +EV in the long run.

i have no problem with preflop, raising here is debatable but its super game flow dependent. its not shorthanded online, its full ring live. no one is punishing you for limping so go ahead and limp.

just give up on the flop. even if they have absolute air your hand is vulnerable to 9 outs at the moment, and 12 by the turn, and thats if you even have the best hand.


edit just reread and remembered its a straddle pot. raising is prolly a hair better here, but being deep with villain i do not want to give him the chance to fold if i can hit my set and drag him along for 350bb. i personally would limp but guess it would be ok to raise if hes competent and wont stack off easily

Which is exactly why I posted this to get some feedback and see what other people think about the line since I'm already bias.

Obviously the majority thinks it's terrible but none wants to put v2 on a range on the turn raise.

Nuts vs air ratio is pretty out of whack here if you know what I'm talking about.

Okay, let's construct a range. On the flop you are calling 60 to win 110 so you need about 35% equity. First off against a random hand:

Board: 6c 7d 7c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.121% 45.05% 02.07% 482098 22190.50 { 3h3s }

Hand 1: 52.879% 50.81% 02.07% 543711 22190.50 { random }

Now against a reasonable range that would raise on the flop: (Let's assume no PP since he checked his straddle. I threw in some crap high cards too as bluffs.)

Board: 6c 7d 7c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 21.560% 20.31% 01.25% 59507 3673.00 { 3h3s }

Hand 1: 78.440% 77.19% 01.25% 226187 3673.00 { A7s-A6s, K7s-K6s, Q9s, Q7s-Q6s, J7s-J6s, T7s-T6s, 96s+, 86s+, 72s+, 62s+, 54s, A7o-A6o, K9o, K7o-K6o, Q8o-Q6o, J8o-J6o, T9o, T7o-T6o, 96o+, 86o+, 75o-72o, 62o+, 54o }

Well I don't bring any news for what I think of preflop and flop. I'm relatively 'creative' compared to a lot of posters and I still think both streets are bad. I would raise preflop. But I hate the flop. You talk about range but are you really floating both villains, since it's not clear to me that V1 folds to the original raise. What scare cards are you really looking for? Or are you planning to rep the boat? I think I fold to two possible villains almost 100% of the time here on the flop. I can't conceive ranges + cards on turn that would enable you to win this hand - I guess maybe if you bink your 3.

Concerning range on the turn, I guess in your mind you somehow perceive there to be a ton of straight and flush draws (that are played in this manner) for this villain as well as things that actually make sense like {66, A6s, A7s, Ax cc}. Even if somehow the bad draws are in his range, unless you plan to raise, he can still counterfeit you on the river as well as hit his overcard outs.

So yes I hate all streets. Just to be clear, was your plan for the flop call to take the hand away (i.e. your turn bet is to rep a flush draw that hit the ace or a 6?). Or was it a soulread and the plan to call villain down hoping for a missed draw.

Nailed it.