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2/5: Turn bottom set on flushy, straighty board 6 ways, OOP 2/5: Turn bottom set on flushy, straighty board 6 ways, OOP

05-01-2014 , 01:57 AM
Someone in EP raises to 20, 5 more come along including Hero in SB with 99. BTN is good reg, all others range from meh to bad. Eff stack is 500 for all players.

Flop (120): JT4
Checks through.

Turn (120): 9
Hero?
2/5: Turn bottom set on flushy, straighty board 6 ways, OOP Quote
05-01-2014 , 02:04 AM
Lead out $100 for value.

Consider folding to ridiculous action behind (reads would help).
2/5: Turn bottom set on flushy, straighty board 6 ways, OOP Quote
05-01-2014 , 02:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyoman
Lead out $100 for value.

Consider folding to ridiculous action behind (reads would help).
+1
2/5: Turn bottom set on flushy, straighty board 6 ways, OOP Quote
05-01-2014 , 08:33 AM
Table seems quite passive as that flop should hit multiple player ranges. Thinking BTN may have bet his draw OTF, hoping for a pass to the river, so not that concerned for the moment.

PF raiser may have missed with AQ+/88-. If others seem stationy/passive I'd lead $90, getting value from draws. Evaluate any resistance; reads are critical.
2/5: Turn bottom set on flushy, straighty board 6 ways, OOP Quote
05-01-2014 , 08:36 AM
What are we hoping to get value from here with a $100 bet?

We are almost at the bottom of your value range for $100, and they would have to call a pretty wide range of hands for $100 for us to be profitable in this spot.

I think betting smaller can induce calls from a wider range of weaker hands. I'd go $65 - $75.
2/5: Turn bottom set on flushy, straighty board 6 ways, OOP Quote
05-01-2014 , 08:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiltn'noob
Someone in EP raises to 20, 5 more come along including Hero in SB with 99. BTN is good reg, all others range from meh to bad. Eff stack is 500 for all players.

Flop (120): JT4
Checks through.

Turn (120): 9
Hero?
I 3-bet this preflop to $120 all day every day. $100 of potential dead money in the pot. EP who is described as "meh" by you raises to $20 and we get 4 callers when action gets to us. If we 3-bet to $120 we fold out a ton of AQ, KQ, AJ hands in his range (range may be even wider and include some of his favorite SCs) and he may even fold the occasional AK (20% of the time maybe?). He flats with JJ/QQ AK and he will 4-bet with AA/KK in which case we can fold.

If he calls, we lead out $150 on 100% of all flops and then if he calls that and we whiff turn we x/f unless action checks through and we bink river...

As played, calling preflop isn't bad by any stretch... its just that its a lost opportunity. Imo, LLSNL players don't 3-bet near enough and this is a perfect example of a spot were we can 3-bet/squeeze and widen our game a bit.
2/5: Turn bottom set on flushy, straighty board 6 ways, OOP Quote
05-01-2014 , 09:42 AM
I also agree with a 3bet in this spot, although calling is not bad. I used to never 3bet these spots thinking "I'm oop, I can set mine mulitway" etc, but in the long run it's really hard to win money oop and this hand really shows how difficult life can be even when you do hit your hand. The dead money won, the boost to your image (and three-bet range), imo, earn your more equity in the long run when you 3-bet.

As played I lead about 75-80 on turn. If you get raised it depends who it's from and how much. Your lead into that many players on that board on the turn should be perceived as fairly strong, perhaps a missed check raise on flop. Do any of the players have the capability to bluff raise you? If not any action should be fairly straight foward, evaluate accordingly.

Last edited by tommyvercetti; 05-01-2014 at 09:46 AM. Reason: forgot something
2/5: Turn bottom set on flushy, straighty board 6 ways, OOP Quote
05-01-2014 , 10:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgiharris
I 3-bet this preflop to $120 all day every day. $100 of potential dead money in the pot. EP who is described as "meh" by you raises to $20 and we get 4 callers when action gets to us. If we 3-bet to $120 we fold out a ton of AQ, KQ, AJ hands in his range (range may be even wider and include some of his favorite SCs) and he may even fold the occasional AK (20% of the time maybe?). He flats with JJ/QQ AK and he will 4-bet with AA/KK in which case we can fold.

If he calls, we lead out $150 on 100% of all flops and then if he calls that and we whiff turn we x/f unless action checks through and we bink river...

As played, calling preflop isn't bad by any stretch... its just that its a lost opportunity. Imo, LLSNL players don't 3-bet near enough and this is a perfect example of a spot were we can 3-bet/squeeze and widen our game a bit.
What's ur flatting range here and what's ur squeezing range?
2/5: Turn bottom set on flushy, straighty board 6 ways, OOP Quote
05-01-2014 , 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgiharris
I 3-bet this preflop to $120 all day every day. $100 of potential dead money in the pot. EP who is described as "meh" by you raises to $20 and we get 4 callers when action gets to us. If we 3-bet to $120 we fold out a ton of AQ, KQ, AJ hands in his range (range may be even wider and include some of his favorite SCs) and he may even fold the occasional AK (20% of the time maybe?). He flats with JJ/QQ AK and he will 4-bet with AA/KK in which case we can fold.

If he calls, we lead out $150 on 100% of all flops and then if he calls that and we whiff turn we x/f unless action checks through and we bink river...

As played, calling preflop isn't bad by any stretch... its just that its a lost opportunity. Imo, LLSNL players don't 3-bet near enough and this is a perfect example of a spot were we can 3-bet/squeeze and widen our game a bit.
I like this. Dont think I considered it in game. EP raiser is tight, stationy female, so I might have gotten 2 or more callers. We x/f this flop into 2 or more ppl, or are you still leading?
2/5: Turn bottom set on flushy, straighty board 6 ways, OOP Quote
05-01-2014 , 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadamIamAdam
What's ur flatting range here and what's ur squeezing range?
The main factor is the EP raiser. When I posted OP didn't give us much of a description on her and indirectly described her as "meh" player.

In general though, if I have a strong image and I suspect EP isn't super strong, my squeezing range here is majority of my playable hands: 97s+, J9+, 77+.

I'm probably more likely to flat A2s - A9s type hands and set mine with 22-66. Reason I squeeze with 77+ is the occasional small pocket pair that may look me up because they put me on AK and are willing to stack off on any non-Ace non-King flop. Hands in villains ranges that "can" do this are more or less exclusively 22-TT. So I set my pocket squeezing range to 77+ so I'm ahead of the rare 22-TT pocket pair hero call range of the infrequent limp/caller who gets stubborn with their baby pockets.

Lastly, this type of play is heavily dependant on my image and EP's raising range. If she is really tight and only raises JJ+ from EP then I'm not squeezing. I'm looking hard for sizing tells as well as the raiser having a wide raising range. The stronger my image, wider my squeeze range. Weaker my image, tighter my squeezing range. If I had a weak image, then I'd squeeze here with 99+, AQ+
2/5: Turn bottom set on flushy, straighty board 6 ways, OOP Quote
05-01-2014 , 01:15 PM
Leading turn for 80-100. Can't risk letting Vs see another free card.
2/5: Turn bottom set on flushy, straighty board 6 ways, OOP Quote
05-01-2014 , 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiltn'noob
I like this. Dont think I considered it in game. EP raiser is tight, stationy female, so I might have gotten 2 or more callers. ...
Very doubtful. EP raised $20, they just called. If they had a real hand they would have raised to iso. So when you pop it to $120, they are almost never calling. They will hem-n-haw, look at their cards several times, flick them, then shrug fold because that is just too big a bet for them to call. Most rec players have a very firm threshold of pain for calling preflop action. Usually they can call around 4bb - 8bb to chase or set mine. Anything beyond that, and they just are never calling, unless they are short stacked and have like 12bb. Otherwise, trust me, it's super rare to get a call from anyone else when action goes like this.

Trust me, I squeeze all the time so I know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiltn'noob
....so I might have gotten 2 or more callers. [/B] We x/f this flop into 2 or more ppl, or are you still leading?
In the rare event we get 2 callers (to include the EP), then yes, I'm still leading out $150 on 100% of all flops. If for some super strange reason we pick up 3-callers, then I will lead out only on non Ace non King boards.

Lets look at the math.

Pot is $100 when action gets to us, we 3-bet to $120, 2 callers,

pot = $420

If we lead out $150, our villains need to fold 27% of the time for our lead out to be +EV.

against 3 callers pot is $540 and we only need villains to fold 21% of the time...

Even though a bet of $150 into such big pots is weak, most rec fish don't think that way. They only look at the size of the bet and to them a $150 bet is a "strong" bet. So they will fold if they whiff or if they have pockets and their are overs on the board. But again, based on the preflop action, the only player who can realistically call is the EP raiser. We pick up another caller less than 5% of the time...

Last edited by dgiharris; 05-01-2014 at 08:25 PM.
2/5: Turn bottom set on flushy, straighty board 6 ways, OOP Quote
05-01-2014 , 09:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgiharris
Lets look at the math.

Pot is $100 when action gets to us, we 3-bet to $120, 2 callers,

pot = $420

If we lead out $150, our villains need to fold 27% of the time for our lead out to be +EV.
Just making it clear for everyone, both Vs need to fold 27% of the time. So each needs to fold 52% of the time. V1 folds AND V2 folds ---> (.52)*(.52) =~ .27 = 27%
2/5: Turn bottom set on flushy, straighty board 6 ways, OOP Quote
05-01-2014 , 09:37 PM
Tough spot. The question is "are we value-owning ourselves by betting into 5 players?". If we have the best hand less than 50% of the time, the answer is YES. There is a decent chance someone has turned a straight or flush, I'd say at least 35%.

Against 3 or fewer players, we are certainly best more than half the time. Against 5, it's questionable. You should try putting 5 players' ranges into an equity calculator.
2/5: Turn bottom set on flushy, straighty board 6 ways, OOP Quote
05-01-2014 , 10:32 PM
Rest of hand:

Spoiler:
I led 100 on the turn, got 2 callers, including reg on btn. River bricked, I led 200. First guy folded, btn reg hemmed and hawed a bit, then folded. Later said he folded a small flush. My policy of 'When in doubt, bet', got lucky again.
2/5: Turn bottom set on flushy, straighty board 6 ways, OOP Quote

      
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