i absolutely understand the fundamental theorem. But the fundamental theorem does not ignore pot odds. You have an entire thread of people here who disagree with you, who have continually demonstrated a way of thinking that makes sense, but are choosing to ignore it...

folding turn would be awful. i'm calling turn and probably calling all rivers.

the Q2 hh shows V is clearly capable of spazzing/bluffing or value betting with way worse.

It takes discipline to call turn and fold river ui. I'll concede in the grand scheme of things folding turn to avoid the river spot is a smaller EV loss than calling turn and calling river ui (which is probably a largish mistake).

However, the point is that correct play is to call turn. Its not even close. You hand has monster equity, pot odds, and implied odds and there's another street to play.

If you think vs range contains worse 2pr you obviously should not fold. Think it's somewhat optimistic (except for chopping other AQ)

Wow, so you guys think he might be calling with a gutshot, but would never have QT or some random hand.

Villain can have AK, check called the flop to fade the diamond and then "Bet to protect his hand"

I think the only hand we are really afraid of on the turn is 66


Villains read is "passive" not super tight nit. He can easily have A6s/AT here

Even a hand like KQ, or a FD could go crazy here

Not shoving the turn, makes us feel safe and good when we were behind, but the times he would have called drawing dead is us crushing ourselves

The river is a very easy range math decision.

We chop with 4 combos of AQo (which would all play this way)

We beat 6 combos of AT (I'll even discount this to 4 based on flop play)
We beat 6 combos of A6 (discounted to 2)
We beat 6 combos of QT (discounted to 3)

We lose to 4 combos of KJdd
We lose to 12 combos of KJo (discounted to 8 based on flop, could likely discount further)
We lose to 3 combos of 66
We lose to 3 combos of TT (discounted to 2 based on flop)
We lose to 1 combo of QQ (which really shouldn't be here based on flop but I'll include it)

Without discounts, we beat 18 combos, lose to 23, chop with 4.
With discounts (and being very liberal with the KJo/QQ parts), we beat 9, lose to 18, chop with 4.

We are getting 2.5:1 on a river call. It's a clear call.

BadlyBeaten badly beaten itt. Fold turn? You can't be serious bruh.

lol at ever folding in this hand.
Turn is somewhat close between shoving and calling, but I think that calling is likely best.

Calling the river 100% of the time against the described villain.

What rivers would make you fold?

OP, results please???

I realize this is a bit vague - if we're never folding any river versus this particular villain, wouldn't we want to jam turn to get value from worse?

I could be wrong, but it seems this dude didn't come to fold. So, let us oblige him.

oh god BadlyBeaten back with more terrible advice.


We have 13 outs to the nuts. We have a history of V playing a hand in exactly the same way with a worse hand.

Are we also completely discounting the possibility that he just has a diamond draw, or 2 broadway cards that make a pair/gutshot and is betting the perceived scare card on the turn? Putting Villain on strictly a nutted range of KJ and 66 given this action is ludicrous, even without a read.


Call turn, call river.

After seeing the Q2 hh its a call OTR, never loving it but its obvious he can be doing this with much worse and definitely capable of spazzing off.

I play at least twice as well as you do. And it's not hard to figure that out.

Grunching the trolls:

If we call OTT then we must play OTR at approximately GTO, as follows:

In addition to the cards that improve our hand, we must go to the felt on the following reveals: 2-5 of hearts, 2-5 of clubs, and 25% of the remaining hearts and clubs which are non-T and non-6.

In the instant case, calling OTT and then folding to the 3 is most likely an error.

The turn is a fold even though it is marginally +EV. Because at these stakes it's not worth stacking off as required to harvest that marginal EV.

lol @ folding. JFC some of you are so nitty. Raise to $545 and stuff any River if checked to. This way you get to see Vs hand first if they shove turn.

Yeah, that information delta is priceless. Like gold. It never gets old.

Wait are you saying fold and wait for a better spot? Loooooooooooiiooooooooooollolllolollll

Lock thread AIDS infestation

PS if you really believe in passing up EV spots you are awful at poker

[OTT] can be +EV when [OTT + OTR] is not. If you don't understand that, start over.

And in fact I just proved my point, for those who care to actually read, rather than troll.

Wtf are you talking about? Is it +EV on the turn to call?

Sorry, BadlyBeaten, but calling on the turn is +EV. It's just a fact of this hand.

BadlyBeaten, you've proven nothing except that you are terrible at poker.

Ah, another thread that has been blessed by BadlyBeaten's so-called advice. I don't know which is more infuriating, the content of his posts or the angry, blatant tone they all seem to have.

Not many, if any at all.

Granted, the 'read' on the player, and the 'hand history' paint a picture of the type of player that I would be pretty much watching 24/7 to see what he does and how he plays.
If it is standard for him to limp in with atc and play for stacks when he has 2p, we really can't be folding to him ever here since he has all 2p combos in his range (and obviously a lot of stuff that beats us too, oh well).

But I'd also know how he plays his draws (at least some of the time) and how he plays his sets (does he flat them on the flop OOP?) and how does he play his strong combo draws.

But for the most part, if he can have all two pairs in his range (a big lol at limp/calling with Q2) then we can never fold top 2 here imo.

We're only $800 effective so raising to that is essentially all in, but yeah I'm with you on raising/cramming turn.

Yeah I know. I just want V to show first.

That's not GTO, bruh. But that's a great technique.