2/5 NL. 200-1K buyin. Game is juicy and 7way at this point. Hero sat down playing nitty a few hours ago, but is now pretty well in the laggy range. Highway robbery is occurring postflop on a regular basis. Felting people hitting backdoor flushes (i was setting up a steal, and then an OOP guy super-slowplayed 2 pair... oops for him). Hero is not table captain do to presence of SUPER LOOSE agg player. In internet terms we're talking 70/60 or greater. Game is 7way. Super Loose villain overplays all sorts of everything postflop. He has won 1 pot vs. hero with his lead out (of 55 into 75 dollars) hero over-raise, villain shove, hero fold. Hero has put super-lag villain on felt once for ~800 with an overpair of QQ in an unraised preflop pot.

Villain 2. We beat up on him at 1/3 and then he tilted like a windmill at 2/5. Came back with a 99 sucking out on a KK (ai preflop). Since then he has nitted it up and come right off tilt. He has played kinda tight, kinda weak. Like hero, he is going after super-loose Villain 1.

The Hand:

Villain 2 (SB) ~2500+
Villain 1--superloose (UTG+1) ~800
Hero (Button) ~2300

Villain 1 raises to 25. Folds to hero.
Hero calls with 44.
Villain 2 calls.

Flop (3 players, 80 bucks)
Q/10/3 2 hearts. Check Check. Hero bets 55 dollars.
This is almost auto here. It is almost never that this crowd will check to the button with the pf raiser checking. I thought I had best hand when I bet.
Call. Call
Never mind. Houston we have a problem.

Turn: 4 (not heart)
Hero gets up and dances, while vigorously thanking the Lord.
Vill 2 bets 100. Vil 1 calls. Hero raises to 350.
Vil 2 calls. Vil 1 shoves for for ~370 on top of that.
Hero?
(main consideration here was call or raise)

I think this might be a tell. Try sitting on your hands from now on.

I laughed at the dance comment as well.

As for the hand, I mean, wow. They're not going to put you on 44 here. 33 is a good possibility, but he probably raises the flop. QQ is about the only hand that I don't think would raise the flop. Maybe he would. Jh Kh sounds like a real possibility for one of the opponents, but I'm raising that flop as well if I have it.

I think I'd just call and hope a safe card hits the river. It's already a big pot. Of course, that's the argument for taking one opponent off his hand as well. He's only calling a shove of another $1600 or so if my math is right with a hand that beats you though.

4 hands that beat you, QQ, TT, 56 and A5 and we can discount QQ, TT and 56 unless the 56 is 56 hearts and A5 could be Ahearts, 5 off suit, or A5 oh hearts.

He could have a KQ or JQ hand with hearts because we don't know which 2 of the 3 of the flop are hearts.

If you don't raise here, you are essentially giving him a free river, so I raise it to about a total of $1100/1300. You want to be committed and not bulffed off of the hand by a scare card on the river.

So there was $245 in the pot on the turn then after bets and re-raises $1665 in the pot and you have $1870 left with V1 all in and V2 covering you (if my math is correct).

Seems like V2 would have bet or c/r a set or 2 pair on the flop and the turn didn't help anyone but you (well maybe V2 made 2 pair).

I think you jam here to charge V2 for a draw. If you run into a higher set its a cooler and shrug it off.

Results, I rocked out with a re-raise to 1K. Villain tanked, then folded AQ face up. V2 also had AQ. Monster pot to hero.

I believe i lost value by not slow-smoothing the shove. If I smooth, then V1 will feel forced to smooth. I can then bet 450 on any river that is checked to me. Putting me in a likely spot to win 350 more, if not 800 more....

I then ran over the game for another 200 bucks just pushing on some reg-weak-tighties the next 3 hands, and then left because I had plans. I was very sad to leave that game-- 70/60 dude was reloading 1K, again.

Your being results orientated.

Raisings right move. Smooth calling looks even.stronger. only time I smooth here is if I knoww villian is going to bluff.

If he wasn't calling then he wasn't calling river.....plus your shove is really under repped and gets called by alot. Of two pairs....I doubt your ever beat by the description you've given.

I can't see anyone bluffing after you flat if they have a hand with showdown value I gotta believe a million of those hands check/fold to you.

I raise looks like isolation....sets up for a shove on river on any blank



80% of time I'm raising here.

I think the shove puts me in a RIO spot. def 33 calls, but I don't know about Q3, 3/10... if the bottom of his call a shove range is Q10, then I may be RIOing myself, and nothing would be worse then donating a hard-worked-for 2.5K stack to either of these donktastic idiots.

If I smooth here, slowly, it looks to villain like I'm ahead of donkey-villain, but maybe not ahead of TPTK. I just don't think villain1 ever folds TPTK here to my smooth getting >5:1. He should, but he won't.

Idk smooth calling looks pretty strong here.

If your talking roi then shoving is definitely right on the river...your maxing Your value out when called on either street

Just my opinion but raising looks like an iso play and sets up a river shove perfectly on a blank....whatever hands will call you here are calling a high percentage of time on the river as well

All that cheddah on TP. I want in this game.

c/f flop. Betting is really bad.

Call turn after villain ships and then shove most rivers.

Can i play villain 2 with 2,5k in front of him some time? OP played hand fine.

Cbarton thinks 6 high beats a set?!?!?

Besides all that dinero with TPTK in this spot, there were not 1, but TWO, donating weak-tight-regs at the table. Their bet and timing tells so transparent it was more or less highway robbery--and they LOVED to see flops. So anytime the stack took a hit, there was free money to be stolen. Anytime the stack went up, free money to be stolen. So basically 2-3 decent/good players just sat there soaking up chips being spewed by every variety of donkey.

I couldn't come anywhere near close to explaining just how ridiculously juicy this game was. This was as good or better then WSOP week in town.

I think river shove gets him to fold. I want to milk, milk, milk this hand. I think turn call and river bet of 450 does the trick.

No it won't get the felt, but 450 is a huge amount to win here. Given my 35+dollar an hour winrate, the combined 800 or so I left on the table is 20+ hours of poker winnings not won in this singular hand.

A bet takes down the pot >50% of the time (observable) when double checked in this game. when I bet flop, the cards didn't matter. I was betting 55 to win the 75 that looked ripe for the pickings.

Ill agree to disagree

Reads reads reads. The thing with shoving the river is villain will never put you on a bluff anyway, so whether you will get more value by flatting here is debatable.

I would say be careful in these games doing anything 100% of the time, like betting when double checked, anything you do 100% of the time is a leak with the exception of maybe never open-limping. Surprised you weren't check-raised by either of the two V's who were OOP and had seemingly the perfect hand to do it with hand but you got lucky so and a box of popcorn.

I am not sure why people keep thinking that in these situations that the smooth call looks so strong and that it will induce folds.

You have to consider the audience here, we are not talking about solid thinking players. To a thinking player, a smooth call of a AI shove should look strong, but to the average sslnl player, it looks anything but "really strong". More times than not their lvl 0/1 thinking also applies to their perception of the smooth call, calling looks weak compared to raising which looks strong to them.

You have to know your customer. Some of these players will look at a big AI in this situation as a "attempt to buy the pot" or as "protection" and this will induce a call. But more times than not they are not thinking past their own nose.

Remember in a raised pot these lvl 0/1 players are thinking about their hand, and if they consider your hand, they are more likely to think you are on a draw or have a weaker TP type hand, than a big hand like a set or str8. So OP if you call here, the villain is much more likely to put you on Qx or FD than a set, and should bet his hand on the river, where you can raise all day long, which I would do just to protect against the possibility that tight reg with the AI has the main pot with QQ.

Call > AI > raise

Edit to add:

So something else here, a little more detail that might help someone out...

When these low level players think in terms of "what does my opponent have" they are equating it how they would play a hand. That is to say, using this hand as an example, you call the AI, the villain is likely thinking along the lines of "ya I would call there with a FD or KQ or QJ". They are not thinking in terms of possible hand ranges that you might hold, at least they are not really thinking about that. They think along the lines of "Humm what hand could he do that with?" and their answer is almost always "Too many hands" and they revert back to self comparison to the opponents actions and those out-liner impression they get from abnormal play (refer to the COTM on image for more detail).

i think he thought the flop had a 2 and the river was out due to the way OP posted flop. lol

fair nuf. if you have reads this specific on the dynamic with these villains, though, i have to say that, this deep, knowing what is the optimal move here is highly reads-dependent.

specifically, we don't know what type of 70/60-ish LAG villain 1 is. does him c/c'ing flop as the PFR set off alarm bells (i.e. does he play QQ, TT like this)? how does v1 play FD's here? top pair? 2pr?

i'm guessing you could answer most of these questions in your head during the hand, but i can't say what i would do without these types of reads. our set is likely ahead of V2's shoving range here, and based on what info we have, probably way ahead of V1's range, but to extract max value from the hand i'd need more info