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2/5 straddle, deep , would you value bet river? 2/5 straddle, deep , would you value bet river?

05-31-2011 , 12:32 PM
2/5 straddle, villain has 2000 stack to start with, TAG, hero image tight, but not a nit, with 1500 stack.

Villain limp UTG, I raise to 45 UTG+1 with AQ, standard raise on table, picked up 4 callers including villain. (225)

Flop came A44 2 hearts. Chk to me, I bet 155, everyone fold except villain who calls. (535)

Turned K of club, a good card. Villain chk, I chk behind for pot control. (535)

Rivered Q of spade. villain chk once more.

Now question is will you value bet here? I understand the reason behind value bet, but why would you chk here if that's what you gonna do?

Last edited by wahaha; 05-31-2011 at 12:58 PM.
2/5 straddle, deep , would you value bet river? Quote
05-31-2011 , 12:52 PM
I don't see a solid tag limping anything utg that beats you here... and if he does limp it utg, its with the intent to limp/raise which he didn't do. He probably doesn't limp/call A4s either. Jh Th would be sick, though.

Also, how is the K on the turn a good card? It counterfeits your kicker so you chop with weaker aces.

River is obviously nice, as you have a good chance of getting paid off by AJ, AT, etc thinking its a chop.

Value bet $250 - $350 on the river.
2/5 straddle, deep , would you value bet river? Quote
05-31-2011 , 07:35 PM
Do you know anyting about the Villains UTG limping range? Is he the type that is limping most pairs and the occasional suited connector in that spot? Is he the type that would limp a worse ace than AJ UTG? If there were fewer callers, it would be much easier to put him on a hand. But if he limped with 45s+ or 22+, he's not folding those hands preflop with that much money in the pot.

You raised from early position, and then lead into 4 people with an A on the flop, and by the river theres a K and Q on board. AK and AQ are the likelisest hands for you given your tight image, and if you happened to take a stab at it with KK or QQ on the flop you got there as well by the river. The problem I have with the river value bet (especially of 250-350) here is what are you going to get called with that you can actually beat? If he was on hearts that missed you aren't getting called unless he has exactly J10 and you are crushed. If he has AA, AK, KK, or QQ (AA + KK less likely because he didn't re-raise preflop) you are crushed, as well as if he got priced in with 45s and flopped trips. If he happens to have A10 or AJ, is he really calling 250-350 in this spot with 535 in the pot to likely win 260ish at best on the chop? Unless the guy is incapable of a river bluff here, (and you are deep enough for him to do that) I think I'd check. You aren't getting much value of hands you can beat calling and it opens the action back up if he gets a wild idea and decides to fire a big bluff off. If he's incapable of the bluff, I think I'd thin value bet 100-150 because then if he has the weaker ace you might actually get called, and if he raises you can lay down.
2/5 straddle, deep , would you value bet river? Quote
05-31-2011 , 08:30 PM
50-75% pot bet from me. He has so many weaker aces in his range that we now beat. 44, J10hh and A4s are the only hands he can have that beats you - a total of 5 combos. He's probably calling us with any A thinking it's a chop.
2/5 straddle, deep , would you value bet river? Quote
05-31-2011 , 08:56 PM
Bet 275/ fold. If he is sick enough to C/R bluff the riv then just give him props. But like 99% of the time you are beat if he raises your river VB. I also don't think he'd raise with JT (at least a lot of people wouldn't)
2/5 straddle, deep , would you value bet river? Quote
05-31-2011 , 09:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atmu2006
Do you know anyting about the Villains UTG limping range? Is he the type that is limping most pairs and the occasional suited connector in that spot? Is he the type that would limp a worse ace than AJ UTG? If there were fewer callers, it would be much easier to put him on a hand. But if he limped with 45s+ or 22+, he's not folding those hands preflop with that much money in the pot.

You raised from early position, and then lead into 4 people with an A on the flop, and by the river theres a K and Q on board. AK and AQ are the likelisest hands for you given your tight image, and if you happened to take a stab at it with KK or QQ on the flop you got there as well by the river. The problem I have with the river value bet (especially of 250-350) here is what are you going to get called with that you can actually beat? If he was on hearts that missed you aren't getting called unless he has exactly J10 and you are crushed. If he has AA, AK, KK, or QQ (AA + KK less likely because he didn't re-raise preflop) you are crushed, as well as if he got priced in with 45s and flopped trips. If he happens to have A10 or AJ, is he really calling 250-350 in this spot with 535 in the pot to likely win 260ish at best on the chop? Unless the guy is incapable of a river bluff here, (and you are deep enough for him to do that) I think I'd check. You aren't getting much value of hands you can beat calling and it opens the action back up if he gets a wild idea and decides to fire a big bluff off. If he's incapable of the bluff, I think I'd thin value bet 100-150 because then if he has the weaker ace you might actually get called, and if he raises you can lay down.
thx for a solid post, i have not see him limp in UTG for the 2 hours we played. he played few hands and actually no show down i believe.
2/5 straddle, deep , would you value bet river? Quote
05-31-2011 , 09:58 PM
Would villain have limped UTG with JT and then call for pot odds...maybe, but why would he then check the river after you checked behind on the turn? If he wants to get paid off, he's got to be worried about you checking behind and should actually lead out himself on the river. If he has any other flush draw he missed the draw. You can bet, but he's probably folding in that case.

He could have l/c with AJs or ATs; a lot of players will...in that case you want to get value and need to bet here.

If he had KK or QQ, the same argument applies as with JT; he needs to bet the river because he can't be sure you will. So those are very unlikely.

If he has a smaller pocket pair or suited connectors, he's behind and realizes it; he's not betting and he's folding.

If he has a 4, then we're back to he-needs-to-bet-the-river land.

It's really hard to put him ahead of you here...it's not impossible by any stretch, but he really played the hand poorly if so. Most likely result of a bet from you would be villain folds. But if you are lucky enough that he has AJ or AT, he might call a bet thinking you're chopping.

I think I would bet here, maybe 150-200 where he may feel compelled to call if he's got an ace. If he responds with a shove I've got a tough decision, but it's actually kind of hard to see him having you beat here, imo.
2/5 straddle, deep , would you value bet river? Quote
05-31-2011 , 10:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atmu2006
Do you know anyting about the Villains UTG limping range? Is he the type that is limping most pairs and the occasional suited connector in that spot? Is he the type that would limp a worse ace than AJ UTG? If there were fewer callers, it would be much easier to put him on a hand. But if he limped with 45s+ or 22+, he's not folding those hands preflop with that much money in the pot.

You raised from early position, and then lead into 4 people with an A on the flop, and by the river theres a K and Q on board. AK and AQ are the likelisest hands for you given your tight image, and if you happened to take a stab at it with KK or QQ on the flop you got there as well by the river. The problem I have with the river value bet (especially of 250-350) here is what are you going to get called with that you can actually beat? If he was on hearts that missed you aren't getting called unless he has exactly J10 and you are crushed. If he has AA, AK, KK, or QQ (AA + KK less likely because he didn't re-raise preflop) you are crushed, as well as if he got priced in with 45s and flopped trips. If he happens to have A10 or AJ, is he really calling 250-350 in this spot with 535 in the pot to likely win 260ish at best on the chop? Unless the guy is incapable of a river bluff here, (and you are deep enough for him to do that) I think I'd check. You aren't getting much value of hands you can beat calling and it opens the action back up if he gets a wild idea and decides to fire a big bluff off. If he's incapable of the bluff, I think I'd thin value bet 100-150 because then if he has the weaker ace you might actually get called, and if he raises you can lay down.
^^ this is solid. I'm checking behind here. There is just nothing that will call you that you beat. IMO the thin river value is no good here. With the size of the pot, I think that a thin value bet here might raise up a good player's radar into thinking "oh.... well just maybe I can blow him off the pot here".

I think you just check behind and show down. I dont see a reason to possibly put yourself in the hot seat here.
2/5 straddle, deep , would you value bet river? Quote
05-31-2011 , 11:09 PM
i dont bet here for what its worth. if the dudes a thinking player, hes not going to pay you off with a crappy ace here.
and then we get owned by all the hands that beat us.
2/5 straddle, deep , would you value bet river? Quote
05-31-2011 , 11:43 PM
I would act a bit and then stick out half pot bet. Live villains will do that damndest things.

Also, K is horrid card for us.

Betsizing is possibly off on flop, depending on balance necessary (if so).
2/5 straddle, deep , would you value bet river? Quote
06-02-2011 , 08:35 AM
So I did value bet 225 into the pot of 530ish, like most of you suggested, although now that I think back, chk behind was not a bad idea depend on the player. Villain tanked for a bit, and just called. I was like ok, there goes extra 225... lol.... he showed 34 sooted , he misplayed the hand every street obviously, I think he was tired/sleepy/also scared of getting seriously action due to our stack size. whatever . hehe
2/5 straddle, deep , would you value bet river? Quote
06-02-2011 , 08:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wahaha
2/5 straddle, villain has 2000 stack to start with, TAG, hero image tight, but not a nit, with 1500 stack.

Villain limp UTG, I raise to 45 UTG+1 with AQ, standard raise on table, picked up 4 callers including villain. (225)

Flop came A44 2 hearts. Chk to me, I bet 155, everyone fold except villain who calls. (535)

Turned K of club, a good card. Villain chk, I chk behind for pot control. (535)

Rivered Q of spade. villain chk once more.

Now question is will you value bet here? I understand the reason behind value bet, but why would you chk here if that's what you gonna do?
Basically, your read is wrong and that renders the advice ITT totally meaningless. That is what you should take away from this and work on.
2/5 straddle, deep , would you value bet river? Quote
06-02-2011 , 11:45 AM
+1 I play a pretty lose style and would easily be considered the most active at a lot of tables I play but I still stay away from four high suited. That being said I still think a river bet is correct (possibly more now that I consider villain a LPP. a loose player is going to get valued owned often by having random Ax hands
2/5 straddle, deep , would you value bet river? Quote
06-02-2011 , 12:17 PM
So your in position right?
I feel like this guy is almost always calling with a weaker ace. If he's lvl 1 "oh i have Aces and 4's with K kicker.
Even if he is thinking, I'm almost always betting my chops here when they've played the hand so passively to try and win the pot.
2/5 straddle, deep , would you value bet river? Quote

      
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