2/5 - A spot to fold KK pre?
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,337
Hero (1k) opens 15 UTG with KK (I often go small here to induce 3bet - anyway getting a ton of callers when I bet 15 is easier to manage than getting a ton of callers when I bet 40+). Villain 1 (1k) MAWG reg 3bet to 70 MP. Villain 2 (650) young reg 4bet 220 on button (no reason to believe he's getting out of line)... Folds to hero?
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 90
For 130 bbs in A cash game I can't see myself folding KK
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,288
What do you think V1's range is here? More importantly, what does V2 think of V1's range? Any chance either villain is aware that your small sizing is too induce? If V1's range is nothing but value and he doesn't like to give up then V2 should be super tight. If that is the case it may be best to make a quiet fold. If V1 can be bluffing or light then V2 should be aware and can be lighter also. If that is the case then shove now. You will be too committed to fold later and don't want give V1 any window to call with AK and hit the flop.
Very hard to fold when you do something to induce and there is action but you have more action here then you want. Because you are OOP you are stuck in a fold/shove situation and have very little invested in the pot. Unless V1 and V2 are rocks shoving can't be bad but it may be close to break even.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,121
sure in this spot you can absolutely fold KK. I probably wouldn't and just assume he could have QQ or AK. It's a BTN 4bet and you only made it $15 which will make the likelihood of AA less.
Also they are both regs so the chances that they are 3 and 4betting with hands like Ax+ and TT+ go up in value.
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 109
130BB deep, kinda sucks having KK in this spot. However, your options here are to either fold or 5bet. Cold calling the 4bet is silly as youre OOP and the pot will be too bloated. If you 5bet youre playing faceup as KK+, any competent player will fold JJ/QQ/AK anyways.
One way to look at it i guess is youre only in for 3BB, guess you could nit up and fold and wait for a better spot given it is a cash game. If you believe a large enough %of the time V2 has QQ/AK/JJ/lighter 4bet range then 5betting is fine. Would suck if you do that though and V1 6bet jams as he has AA almost 100% of the time but you'd be too pot committed to fold then.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,254
Huge 3-b size by V1 leads me to think JJ/TT, happy to take it down pre based on your sizing trend. Not worried about him 5-b the vast majority of the time.
If V2 4-bet range includes QQ/AK, can't fold. If so, call despite being oop, ready to stack off on under boards. If an Ace flops, can get away.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,337
I think V1's range is JJ, maybe TT+, AK. Doubtfully AQ or AQs. I think V2 would perceived same range for V1. Both villains probably assume I can have a lot of hands here from SCs/mid PPs up.
Join Date: Aug 2013
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Join Date: Oct 2016
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,497
I wouldnt be surprised at all if both of them have KK+ here.
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 3
This is a really tough spot to be in because the hands he possibly could be 4-betting are JJ+ AK. One of those you block and in the 2-5 games I play I hardly ever see a 4-bet with worse then QQ unless the player is very aggro. Unless you have seen this player get out of line, I would seriously consider folding. Unless you think part of his range is worse then what I stated above I would seriously consider folding. If you are going to call or raise the 4-bet I would lean towards calling because what worse hands are going to call a Jam here? If I was the villain I would only call with AA and fold all my worse hands.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 13,762
Flat the 220 and see what v1 does.
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 5,678
It's a pretty thin spot, but I do not fold KK to this action. A cold 4-bet from a young player is not necessarily KK+. AK/QQ will definitely show up here, and occasionally worse. Click it back and fold to a 5-bet from the deep stack.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 948
I wouldn't fault a fold here, but we're just not deep enough for me to fold KK pre.
You opened small to induce a 3!, so I think the button 4! can be wider than just AA. Without knowing V, I'd guess a range of 10s+ AK (which you block heavily), and possibly AQs. Of course there's always the possibility that he's just clicking buttons. For 130bb, I just shove here and so-be-it if I run into AA.
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 473
there are arguments for all options.
fold if you hate variance
call if MAWG is a sucker
and ship it if you think fukkthis****igotKK
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,288
can't see myself folding here...
i probably just ship it. we're not very deep effective with either villain.