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2/5 River Spot 2/5 River Spot

07-03-2024 , 11:21 AM
Max BI is $500 at this property.

Villain is $500 effective. Has only played a couple of hand but has been very aggressive with betting big on turns and rivers. Has not said a word at the table. In his 20's. Looks like a grinder.

This is BTN vs BB. Hero missed BB so bought the BTN in the SB.

Folds around.

BTN raises $15
Hero (4s6s) defends. Seems standard since I'm in for $7.

Flip 4cQs6c

Hero c/c $25

Pot: $80

Turn Jh

Hero c/c $75

I'm not liking this card and turn bet as I've been counterfeited by QJ, and now hands like KT,9T, AT have picked up equity. Plus what does he think I have? Q or only club draw?

River Td

Hero checks.
Villain ships All-In for around $375.

Cannot get a read. The player walks away from the table to talk to the floor about something. He seems extremely comfortable.
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07-03-2024 , 11:29 AM
Don't love pre OOP, but I get it given pot odds.

Raise flop.

River - ugh. Feels very polarizing, like air or he backed into the straight with AK.

I'm inclined to fold, Bluffers don't tend to want to draw attention to themseves by doing things like walking around. However not sure I ever find the fold in game in the heat of battle.
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07-03-2024 , 11:32 AM
Yeah, fold pre for sure.

I usually fold bottom two in that spot to the river jam. You only played a few hands with him in your lifetime, so I don't really see any justification for calling, but that's just me.

He walked away from the table while you were tanking?
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07-03-2024 , 11:46 AM
Preflop seems standard btn Vs bb .

I probably c/r flop.

As played flop, agree with c/c ott, and probably reluctantly fold river.
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07-03-2024 , 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
Yeah, fold pre for sure.

I usually fold bottom two in that spot to the river jam. You only played a few hands with him in your lifetime, so I don't really see any justification for calling, but that's just me.

He walked away from the table while you were tanking?

Ya he did. I put myself on the clock and he walked to talk to the floor or something.
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07-03-2024 , 12:42 PM
We have a fairly trivial continue preflop. Because there is a dead small this is like a heads up spot + extra dead money. Accordingly, you could mix 3bets and calls pre.

I think facing a large bet on the flop and turn check call is the way to go on those streets.

I would fold the river. Maybe this is a great spot for him to bluff, but honestly pot, pot, overbet jam is just a very underbluffed spot from both regs and recs. I think any flopped set, QJ, maybe QT would take this line. He can also have AK, K9, 98 for a straight, with or without a club draw. It's really hard for you to have a straight except Kc9c and 9c8c. Way more of your range is just going to be Qx, so he can definitely have 2p and sets for value on the river.

In theory the fact that villain has more nutted hands probably means he can overbet bluff a ton on the river too. I think our hand is a call in theory, but from my experience these are just underbluffed spots and we don't beat value, so I would fold. In theory there should be more bluffs the bigger the bet size, but I see way more bluffs for 75% pot - pot than like 150% pot +. Even very slight overbets I see as bluffs more as if they did the bare minimum to be an overbet.
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07-03-2024 , 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ72
Ya he did. I put myself on the clock and he walked to talk to the floor or something.
don't do that again lol...
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07-03-2024 , 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
don't do that again lol...
He didn't know it. To him I was just tanking. LOL.
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07-03-2024 , 02:17 PM
wp pre, this isn't close at all

flop is whatever, c/c and c/r are both fine.

wp turn

river is a snap call. edit: maybe a tank call

Last edited by 411Heelhook; 07-03-2024 at 02:47 PM.
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07-03-2024 , 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
Yeah, fold pre for sure.
No thought of restealing to say 50? Given V's description, he's opening (40%?). We would need V to fold ~75% of his range to show immediate profit.
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07-03-2024 , 03:02 PM
Pre seems right on the cusp either way. Vs this guy it's probably slightly losing.
But whatever.

Flop I would CR w/ the bdfd and especially since he's probably over c betting this board like maybe w/ the majority if not all of his AK.

Turn is good.

River even in theory it's an indifferent call. Take out some bluffs that he likely doesn't have like the K5'sand A2's and it's a clear loser.

My vote is pretty clear fold since he likely arrives w/ a ton of AK this way and not enough bluffs.
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07-03-2024 , 03:03 PM
OTF This is a clear cut situation for raising. We have the nut advantage. Our actual hand needs protection. I'm raising to 125. Looking for a good turn card to shove.

Last edited by Mr. Big Stack; 07-03-2024 at 03:08 PM. Reason: Posted late after previous replies.
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07-03-2024 , 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Big Stack
No thought of restealing to say 50? Given V's description, he's opening (40%?). We would need V to fold ~75% of his range to show immediate profit.
I'd still wanna be stronger instead of doing it with almost ATC. He's only played a couple hands so far so I would want more info on him.

If we raise to 50 and he calls, we're OOP with 6 high with 100 in the pot and most likely no equity. It would be a button press but who knows maybe it'll work but I wouldn't wanna do it vs an aggressive player who would probably wanna flat his button.
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07-03-2024 , 04:41 PM
Shouldn't we raise flop and at least raise turn? River idk as I wouldn't be there. What other hands do you get here with? If this is in the bottom 40pc ish you can fold. Otherwise call as you unblock busted draws. Clubs, 87 75 etc.

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07-03-2024 , 06:37 PM
Ok take 2, i read this as a mono flop and had to delete my post and reset lol.

I think flop is a C/R, its a far more vulnerable hand than something like 44/66 while being equally as atrong (its the nuts except against QQ) otf.

As played im calling turn and uh, i guess folding river? Not a great spot. I dont think he plays QT this strong. You lose to AsKs, 66 44 which is 3 total combos. MAYBE QJ. otherwise his line doesnt make a ton of sense. But this feels like a spot where you dont know how youre beat but you are. I dont hate a call.
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07-03-2024 , 07:21 PM
He can have more than AsKs. He can have pretty much every AK combo.
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07-03-2024 , 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Spyutastic
He can have more than AsKs. He can have pretty much every AK combo.
Yes i thought about that, and i think V betting the turn with AK is smart, i would, but typically the type of V at 2/5 who double barrels with a gutshot isnt good enough to not massively overbluff the spot, so id put a bunch of total air in his range if i put AK in there.
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07-04-2024 , 12:55 AM
Ok some thoughts

Preflop: buttons open range here should be absolutely massive. There's $2 dead and only one blind to get through, which he has position on. Anything remotely playable should be defended, and I'd definitely be 3betting aggressively here as well.

Flop: really weird sizing from him, doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a range bet and I feel like most of his range would prefer a smaller bet. In response, I think you should have a pretty well developed calling and raising range, and your nutted hands should be mixed into both so both lines are protected. I disagree with the idea of raising 46s here because it's the most vulnerable of our nutted hands, I think it's the other way around. Even with a raise we aren't going to be able to comfortably end the hand on the turn, so we often end up bloating the pot and creating some really nasty river situations on many different runouts while folding out all of the hands that are actually really low equity vs us (AJ, K5, etc.).

Turn: given flop and turn sizing, your range has been truncated enough that you'll have plenty of better hands to raise here and this fits very nicely as a call. That said I don't hate raising, it does make sense for a number of reasons.

River: You're blocking a ton of his value hands, especially since hands like Q6o and Q4o shouldn't be discounted due to buying the button. Regarding bluffs, I think flop action is really important because I don't think he would choose that sizing on the flop with any 6 or 4 unless he had a strong backdoor draw to go along with it, which significantly lowers your interaction with that part of his bluffing range. Because of that, I think the vast majority of his bluffs are going to come from hands like KT, AT, 9T, KsXs, AsXs, etc. which you have very little interaction with.

Extra: This took place at The Bellagio, right? I'd argue the good 2/5 and 5/10 regs are more likely to be overbluffing spots like this, not underbluffing, and this generally exacerbates with the series in town.
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07-04-2024 , 01:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 411Heelhook
Ok some thoughts

Preflop: buttons open range here should be absolutely massive. There's $2 dead and only one blind to get through, which he has position on. Anything remotely playable should be defended, and I'd definitely be 3betting aggressively here as well.

Flop: really weird sizing from him, doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a range bet and I feel like most of his range would prefer a smaller bet. In response, I think you should have a pretty well developed calling and raising range, and your nutted hands should be mixed into both so both lines are protected. I disagree with the idea of raising 46s here because it's the most vulnerable of our nutted hands, I think it's the other way around. Even with a raise we aren't going to be able to comfortably end the hand on the turn, so we often end up bloating the pot and creating some really nasty river situations on many different runouts while folding out all of the hands that are actually really low equity vs us (AJ, K5, etc.).

Turn: given flop and turn sizing, your range has been truncated enough that you'll have plenty of better hands to raise here and this fits very nicely as a call. That said I don't hate raising, it does make sense for a number of reasons.

River: You're blocking a ton of his value hands, especially since hands like Q6o and Q4o shouldn't be discounted due to buying the button. Regarding bluffs, I think flop action is really important because I don't think he would choose that sizing on the flop with any 6 or 4 unless he had a strong backdoor draw to go along with it, which significantly lowers your interaction with that part of his bluffing range. Because of that, I think the vast majority of his bluffs are going to come from hands like KT, AT, 9T, KsXs, AsXs, etc. which you have very little interaction with.

Extra: This took place at The Bellagio, right? I'd argue the good 2/5 and 5/10 regs are more likely to be overbluffing spots like this, not underbluffing, and this generally exacerbates with the series in town.
Ya it was at The Bellagio and thanks for the detailed response. My fear was that Villain backed into better 2P or a set and figured I was going to stack off with a Q. When the player got up from the table I was thinking he must be really comfortable to just go lock up his seat at another game or whatever.
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07-04-2024 , 01:12 PM
PRE - definitely not folding, but I kinda want to raise against this V, when we're buying the button, and it seems like he'd be more likely to attack the dead money from IP. Calling seems ok, can't be terrible, but I think I prefer a raise.

FLOP - I'm fast playing this as a check-raise, even when he bets almost full pot. We're just not going to like very many turns or rivers. We don't mind taking it down here and now.

TURN - yuck. As played, check call.

RIVER - yeesh, pretty gross. We only beat bluffs and over-plays, and I don't think this V is going to try bluffing or going too thin for value, so I think we should fold.
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07-05-2024 , 01:40 AM
Results?

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07-05-2024 , 01:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Hickok
Results?

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Folded river
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