Standard table, some action players had recently busted / left leaving a mixed bag of villains. Most pots are raised pre, this is the only pot in about 90 minutes that limp / folds to Hero OTB. Maybe there was one other hand where I folded and let the blinds chop... At any rate OTTH:

2 MP limps, 1 LP limp and Hero is the effective stack with $450 and raises the button to $25 with Q4. I realize this is a terrible hand but given the Vs in the hand and the action, no one is limp re-raising and ranges are capped. I could size up here for the limpers but I opted to make the standard 5x open as results seemed pretty similar 5-7x. Blinds fold. MP V calls, other limpers fold. Decent result.

V is MAWG, not super TAG but not LAG either, closer to TAG than LAG though. Seems to have a tight opening range (top 7% ish) but less rigid limp calling range. Nothing fancy from V all night. Fairly ABC but is calling down lighter vs loose Vs.

Hero should be viewed as TAG pre but a little out of line at times post. I've raise / folded once OTF after a TAG bet / 3 bet shoved and no one could put me on a hand that should raise and also fold. This was the only non-top 6% hand I raised pre in any position.

Flop ($65): 9 8 3
V checks, H bets $30, V calls quickly. Super draw heavy board. With a pot this small I usually dont use 1/3 sizings. Just under half pot seemed fine. I still have Vs range pretty wide here.

Turn ($125): 9 8 3 6
V checks, H bets $80. I went 2/3 here to charge the draws more and perhaps the straight that came in. V calls quickly again. With this sizing I expected V to at least consider raising or folding. I'm ranging V on super easy calls here: Ad+pair, 99, 88, 33, T7, maybe some Kd7x or Kd+pair, and all the reasonable flushes A2-AT, KJ, KT, JT, 67 is probably the bottom. I'd think 2 pair would have some pause but perhaps some 98 also snap.

River ($285): 9 8 3 6 2
V leads $125
Hero?

Is this a defensive bet so Hero can only raise the nuts? Is this a nutted hand trying to keep Hero's bluffs in? We obviously cant fold here but is it too thin to raise? My first instinct is to flat because we aren't getting called by worse right? Is there any hand we can beat that can also call our shove here? We only have another $190ish after the call.

I know, I know. Fold pre. 99% of the time I do. This time I raised junk in position and got heads up. I'd like to focus on post flop decisions here. Thanks in advance.

What position is this guy in when he limps? This makes a big difference on what combos he can have here. If he was the LP limper than we can probably discount hands like AJdd, ATdd, KJdd, KTdd from limping in. If he is MP and tight passive then he still has these strong hands in his range.

Since his PFR range is so tight and the guy is a tight passive this spot is a bit closer than a fist pump jam. I think he would play 98ss and flopped sets this way. Also, JTdd, 76dd, and 54dd. But he also has A2dd, A5dd, A6dd, A7dd, and possibly ATdd and AJdd. Plus KJdd, KTdd, and K9dd.

His smaller bet sizing has me leaning toward hands we beat, and I doubt he can fold a set, he never folds a worse flush, so I would shove for value here. I wouldn't fault you for flatting against this V type. So many times these guys never make an aggressive play on the river without the nuts.

With that said, I think there's a good chance he would have check-raised the nuts on the turn being OOP, so his river bet feels kind of like a blocker bet with a medium strength hand that wants value from your overpair but was too scared to play for stacks on earlier streets because it's not "the nuts".

I think it's a shove for value, and it's not like we're super deep so being wrong here isn't the end of the world. Unless we have some sick read that villain is an absolute nut peddler and never bets thin then it's a jam. We're just so high up in our range here and it's a massive cooler in a heads up pot if villain has Axdd or Kxdd. There's many worse flushes, straights... I know his line is strong but the standard is definitely to shove for value here.

Pre is terrible, as you should already know.

Pre sizing is also very bad, it should be $35-$45. No one is folding vs your raise size and all you’re doing is bloating a pot with Q high no kicker. If you’re going 3x + 1 more for each limper it should be minimum $30.

Flop way bigger. Turn is ok.

Ap river i jam, but it’s close and i dont fault a flat.

Why do you like a bigger flop bet and how does it fit in your approach to monotone boards? I personally hate monotone boards.

Stop calling yourself a Tag.

Rest is fine. Shove river next hand.

Villains position is important when trying to hand read.

If we are betting 46% pot here that implies we are cbetting a lot of hands, and that’s probably not a good strat on 98xddd, as the limper has a good amount of strong hands here and we are going to have a lot of whiffs like AK/KQ/KJ no diamond. If we cbet too much here we can 1) get owned and 2) we dont have a lot of fold equity as his range has a lot of one pair hands with a diamond (PP), pairs, draws + diamond, Ad, Kd that just arent going to fold. So if he isnt folding a lot and the board hits his range hard we want to be selective with what hands we cbet and when we have a good hand it just makes sense to bet bigger to get max value. His calling range is fairly inelastic, he’s either going to call or not (barring some extremity like 90-150% flop cbet sizing which no one does anyway).

Yes. And also using these terms for V "not super TAG but not LAG either, closer to TAG than LAG though. Seems to have a tight opening range (top 7% ish) but less rigid limp calling range"

The AG in TAG and LAG is a very important part of this and they shouldn't have much if any of a limp calling range.


Pre, if you're going to do something stupid on the button, at least bet more to thin the field and/or give yourself a chance to take it down before the flop.

Otherwise it's all fine but yes, shove river

click it back to 255. curiosity will get you paid off.

Raising pre is really bad. Not only do you have a weak value hand, a hand that doesn't hit many boards and a potentially RIO hand, you are actually teaching your opponents not to limp preflop (to fold or come in for a raise instead). Your unintentionally making the game worse for yourself. Save your raises for good hands that actually deserve to be raised (strong value hands and a portion of your suited connectors).

That's not even mentioning how easily it is for a limper to exploit your raise with bluff 3bets nor how often live low stakes players limp strong hands.

River vs this player is a clear shove for value. Sometimes he'll have you beat. No big deal. Reload.

I guess I play with unicorns, since the 1-2 tables at which I play have plenty of older regs who've been limp-folding since Reagan was president. Or are you suggesting that the average 2-5 game has little-to-no limp-folding?

It's been my experience that even most bad players recognize when someone is abusing their button when that player is opening this wide over limpers. I'm sure these old timers will be limping for years to come but some of them may just wait until it's not your button or until you've left the table to limp some of their garbage.

I'm sure it's less the case at 1/2 but I do think a single loose player (Q4 opens may qualify) or a few regs can have a major effect on how a table plays in regards to whether players open limp, generally come in for a raise, and certainly in regards to raise sizes (ie players love to follow the table captain or at least adjust to the table captain).

To be clear, I'm not saying raising is bad. I raise more than the vast majority of regs at any level. I'm just saying that if you are a player that plays as wide as Q4 then it is bad to raise the bottom of your playable range and one of the possible side effects is that players will adjust by not limping as much and personally I'd like the whole table to limp when its my button.

Thanks all for the feedback.

OP just says MP. To be more specific V was UTG+3 at a 9 handed table with Hero OTB.

Noted. 30-35 makes more sense. I see your logic below but against this V after he checks to me I think a bigger flop bet induces more folds from one pair hands with no diamond and two over cards with one diamond. Don't we want to play against Vs whole calling range?

What should I call myself? In my games I am always in the bottom 2 or 3 in PFR and VPIP. I have a 3 and 4 bets and often use 2/3 sizings.

Noted as mentioned above. Whiffed on V description. Tight Passive is closer. How would you describe Hero?

I prefaced the post with "pre is terrible"... I chose to make this move because I wasn't opening often (top 6%) and many of my opens were being folded to and collecting limpers with standard sizing. That's not a reason not to size up here, it's just the flawed logic behind the decision. I'm only teaching them to not to limp if the hand goes to showdown. Even if I have AQo here I can find a fold if the right player aggressively 4 bets. This is not exactly exploitable if it happens once in a 6 hour session.

I would classify you as a nit pre. And likely tight/spazz post (going off what you have said in thread)

You don't qualify as a tag till your raising 15%

What is the point of this $25 raise? Q4s doesn't have enough nut potential to put in a pot sweetener raise, it doesn't have enough value for a value raise, and this size doesn't get enough folds. Overlimping and trying to make some monster is fine.

I actually think shoving here might be too thin. This is often a "don't lose the customer" line, and it's hard for a non-pay station to call off a jam w less than a flush himself. So shoving may actually be a fairly EV neutral play, and if we're playing with this guy a lot, it may pay to see if this line of his is his trap line.

river is a pretty clear raise. i dont expect villain to play baby flushes like this, i think those x/r flop a high %. i think flopped nut flush might, but i think they bomb river for more. i think more often than not this is more of a blocker bet from a set/straight type hand.

Why would he be afraid of losing his customer when hero has been the aggressor on every street in the hand?

Because we already have evidence that he's irrational by check call check call donk. Irrationality in one area often means irrationality in others. I see bad players do this with monsters a ton because they're afraid of losing their customer by check raising the turn (but then strangely would never bluff xr).

This makes sense to me. When it is what it looks like, I think of this line as the "OMC checkraise" which is to call the bet OOP and put in a big bet on the next street, so as not to scare off one's opponent.

GRUNCH - I'm shoving river AINEC. Don't really care if he had the flush or not. You raised w/ Q4s while short, flopped a flush, the 4th diamond never showed up and the board never paired. Dream scenario. Shove, then sneak another $200 onto the table and bet again. Easy game.

Thanks for all the feedback. Some solid points I hadn't considered.

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9 - Raise / shoves with various insights.
2 - Flats with most of the issues that gave me pause.

Results:

Played fine IMO although I probably size bigger on flop and turn ($45 and $105 ish). River is an easy flat...worse will not call a raise and so you just lose more when you are beaten.

EDIT: Just saw the spoiler. Yeah, tough one but makes sense.

C,

Already saw the results, but regardless, that’s a clear shove with this stack size on the river.