Not sure best way to handle this spot...

Newish table, open for 45 mins or so.
H: played maybe 1 hand so far, still have original stack (500), mid 30s reg
V1: old man, calls too much pre then plays fit or fold, doubled up early with st flush (!!!), covers
V2: (btn) me 30s Asian, have not seen him get out of line yet, won a few hands with cbets, haven't seen any bluffs yet but can't be sure. Has 700.

H dealt red QQ UTG, raise to 20 (std raise)
V1: calls in MP
V2: raise to 50 OTB
Blinds fold

Is this a call, 4b/fold, or 4b/call?

call

I would hate to have to fold to a 5bet, so I'm not 4betting if I'm not willing to gii.

$120/fold

i'd flat

never 4b/folding QQ for 100bb pre

Think of a 3betting range for villain otb

Then think of villains flatting range when we click it back

Then tell me what any live poker players 5bet range is

Realizing the ah ha moment of not 3/4betting strong value hands and then folding (popularized by baluga's teachings back in the day) is neat and all, but folks need to realize under what circumstances that philosophy is correct.

It's not correct when villains call with everything under the sun but bluff raise approximately never.

Thats fine if we have more info on villain but with what we do have it's way too specific of an archetype to slot V into IMO. The only people I 4b against like this really are regs that I've played several sessions with to understand how it crushes them, not randoms I've played for under an hour.

I don't think it's a bad play in general but it's mainly good against players that 3b too much and don't 4b bluff enough, and here we haven't even seen V 3b once.

I just think calling is going to be decently better on avg vs an unknown until I atleast have an idea what his 3bet freq is.

edit: just to clarify I'm not calling just to set mine, happy to play postflop near the top of my range.

I don't think we can say he can 3bet light without knowing anything about him, and give him too much credit to be a good player so his range atm is AA, KK, and maybe QQ, AK & AKs.

He 3bet to 50 over an UTG opener to 20 and one caller, so if he was any good he would realize the UTG's range is strong to begin with as well as size his bet bigger. Folding would ruin any setmine opportunity to possibly stack him and or the other guy.

20-25 hands into sesh, not nearly enough info. Tight Hero opens from EP, call, then a 3-bet for ~pot from BTN who has not shown over agg tendencies. If that is an attempted squeeze, sizing is a disaster, so I’d lean towards strength with a brain whiff on sizing.

Folding is out. I originally leaned toward a 4b/fold, however w/o history and essentially just sat, I’d call. On an all under board I’m prepared to C/C.

I don't think he's arguing he is 3 betting light often. His point is that he NEVER 5 bets light

I agree, but we would still waste a good setmine opportunity if we just threw it away, not to mention losing an additional $100. Also, KK might flat, and AA might even flat in position.

Flat and evaluate flop.

That's equally as speculative as whether or not V has light 3b range. Are we really just setmining QQ against an lol 3b sizing *that could be for isolation*? It's pretty terrible when we just c/f 832r and find out V has TT-JJ, AK, or 67s.

4b/f is okay, especially in a spot like this. I actually feel better about flatting with a combo of AA, and smaller pairs.

I'm not c/f'ing and I'm not only setmining. i was referring to when we have to fold to a 5bet.

You're not setmining when you have QQ against standard 3b ranges. Your suggestion that we "miss a good setmine opportunity" is contingent upon finding out that V 5b us. That's results oriented thinking. Like, "Aw shucks, I should've just called the 3b since this time V had AA and 5b all in".

We are likely doing well against V's 4b flatting range, and will have a very good understanding of when our hand is a favorite on various board textures.

Something like $120/fold with QQ likely saves us money when compared to calling the 3b and c/c 2-3 streets when V has an over pair.