2/5, 7 handed, $500 effective with +2, $100 effective with BB. This is literally the first hand that +2 and I sat down for. I don't recognize either villain.

OTTH

+2 straddles, hero opens Q Q $40 CO, BB calls, +2 calls.

Flop ($122): J 9 2. BB shoves $60, +2 calls. Hero? Do you like raising small here or just shoving? Why?

Raise to 180 and shove the turn on a non-diamond, non-J. Deny odds to the FD and it will be hard for TP to fold getting 3:1.

With no info, I make a basically standard raise and evaluate turn.

If I got the vibe that +2 was gamble-y, I'd shove and hope he calls with a flush draw or straight draw -- or hope he calls w/ AJ/KJ hoping you are drawing.

Seems like an A would be a really bad turn card to shove, too.

I guess I automatically get the vibe that +2 is gambly not only because he straddled but because he did the first hand he sat down.

Once you call the 60 on the flop, the pot will be 302 and you and the +2 will have 400 behind. I would raise an additional 200. He really cannot call with overcards or draws profitably since he can only win an additional 200 on the last bet when he makes his hand. He will not be getting the correct pot odds or implied odds. But you don't want him to fold his one pair hands. So do not push all in on the flop. Just re-raise planning to call his all in bet when he shoves.

for BB to play like that most likely AA or KK
so we need to win something in a side pot
Raise to $160

not folding if V donks turn into us unless its a J

AA and KK for BB are in the range (although you'd think he'd just shove pre), but so are a lot of other hands with Js, flush draws, straight draws, even 9s. BB is just not a concern.

I do like a raise better than a shove, I think. Last time I did this I had AA (granted, better than QQ, but I highly doubt V has AA/KK) vs. a very gamble-y looking YAM. I raised pre, he donked flop, I shoved and he called, MHIG. No idea what he had and he left the table.

From my computer, normal raise is good.

BB would shove pre with weaker hands,
with AA or KK why chase out the straddler, he would want more $$$$ in.
flat the late pos raise inviting in the straddle and shove any flop gets more $$$ in the MAIN pot.
I think unless we spike a Q we're playing for a side pot

The first $60 we put in makes the pot $300.

By the time we have sized up enough to deny odds to draws on this board, we may as well just shove. This also has the advantage that the villain trapped in the middle has to make one decision for all the money if he has a marginal made hand, instead of calling one small bet and then getting away.

BB should be pretty strong here calling 35 OOP but it would still be a mistake not to raise for value and to protect his stack if he didn't shove all in pre-flop with AA and KK. He might just call and make sure no Ace on flop before shoving with KK on the flop. But I think that is less likely then him having made a set or top pair or having a flush draw. Those are all equally likely. He could even have TT with a diamond. His shove is usually an attempt to protect a vulnerable hand rather than a strong hand such as a set or AA. I think the only hand we may be loosing to against the BB might be KK but more likely he has a pair or draw. Anyway his stack is only 100 so side pot becomes the more relevant stack. We do not want to push the other stack out of the pot. We want him to call with his weak made hand or draws.

I'm shoving this spot.

Here is the problem with raising...
Are you really folding the turn if another diamond peels? If not then you allow Villain to gain IO (albeit small) against you by calling and still folding missed draws.

If we raise to $200 that only leaves 200 behind for a super tiny 1/3 pot bet on turn. If I am committed to the hand to showdown (which it seems we likely are) I'm just jamming it in here to deny equity to draws and I still expect to get looked up by a fair number of Jx hands too.

Re-reading the hand play, four players called the 40 dollar pre-flop bet, so pot is 160 on the flop. The BB only has 60 left. They will shove with any made pair or draw, hoping to get another player to re-raise and protect his hand, thereby increasing his own equity. Do not try to narrow his range based upon his post-flop play. We have to evaluate his range based upon his pre-flop play? Is he a good solid player or a fish? What hands would he commit almost half his stack OOP with other players still behind yet to act? What hands would he call with and what hands would he shove all in with pre-flop? In general, his pre-flop play looks to be pretty weak to me. If he had any decent hand, he should have shoved pre-flop. Remember one of the basic rules of poker. Any time you plan on calling with 1/3 rd or more of your stack, you should probable be shoving all in. This is definitely true in tournament play, but I think it goes equally well here when short stacked in cash game as well.

On the flop, the BB is risking 60 to win 220 when called by one player. He only needs 20 percent equity to make this shove. He likely has any pair on the board or a small pocket pair. If he had a flush draw, nut or otherwise, he would more likely check call, trying to get multiple callers to increase his pot odds. There would be no advantage to him leading out into this 4-way pot. But a marginal made one-pair hand will pick up significant equity if he can get another player to shove all in with a draw and force other marginal hands like AK to fold. Based upon his pre-flop call, I would guess he had a speculative hand such as a marginal pair or suited broadway cards like KQ, TJ. Those would often like to see a flop and will play OK multi-way but are not strong enough to re-raise all in and play heads up against a player with a stronger range.

Once again, his hand becomes less of an issue given his small stack. If we just call, the pot will be 340, not 300 as I had originally stated. What will we do if an Ace or King comes on the turn? Check and let the CO shove all in only to find out he had AQ or TT or a missed flush draw? I think we have to raise here by half his remaining stack. That will pot commit us to the river and it will pot commit him in most situations as well. If he has AK he may save 200 by calling the turn and folding the river when a blank comes. So with two over-cards to top pair, he will be risking 200 to win 740 - presuming we will call his remaining 200 when an Ace comes on the river and he bets. This is pot odds + implied odds when he hits. So he is risking 1 to win 3.7. Those are horrible odds to call with two over-cards (especially if two of them could make the flush, and knowing we plan to jam the turn when a blank comes). He should therefore fold AK and AQ, but most players will not. So, he should mostly be calling with hands like AJ, TT, or AK with at least one diamond. Anyway, shoving will only force him to fold out many of his weaker holdings and increase the likelihood that we are beat when he calls. I think it becomes somewhat academic because in most cases he will likely either fold or re-raise us all in to our 200 dollar raise.

But, if we shove, he has less of a difficult decision with some of his marginal hands. The key to becoming a really great poker player is learning how to properly size your bet to force your opponents to make really tough decisions. If we had AK in this situation, and we raised 200, would the CO still call with AQ or TT or TJ or QJ or A5 diamonds? When we bet 200, we could have a weak hand such as AQ and we put many of his marginal hands to the test. He must now call with some marginal hands like AK and TT.

OP results

Note that we are 3 ways to the flop, not 5.


I shoved and +2 folded. BB had KJ.

All he did was defend his straddle, I would raise to 200 and shove every turn.

Don’t understand why we think BB has a monster often

Shove is not even a huge raise. This is a shove all day. Wp.

Shoving all in on the flop is not likely to get the flush draw to fold. So why try? Raising will get more bad hands to call. Then, if flush misses the turn, you can shove. And yes in some cases, I could fold and save 200 if the flush card comes in on the turn against certain players, especially if the flush card is a K or an A as both of these put an over-card to our pair. In this case, the +2 likely has either a flush draw or a hand like AK. Would I always fold to the flush or an overcard on the turn? definitely not. I would really need to know how the other player plays in order to make this laydown. I would likely check call but hope he checks his weaker hands back. Shoving is not wrong and if I were in a tournament where you need to protect your stack and put your opponents to a decision for their tournament life, I would definitely shove in that case.