Super Reg infested 2/5 table on Fri early evening. Table was super quiet and serious until I started doing my Big Skip act and got folks talking.

Hero has friendly, but tight rec player image and a stack of ~835,up from $500 buy in, which was small for this table. Most Vs are coming in for 1k to 1500.

V 1is older grinder to hero's direct right who covers. He usually opens to 15-20 but his button opens are often huge. It seems like he doesn't want calls with these opens but only to steal the blinds and any limps. If it is folded or limped to him OTB he pretty much always opens for $30-40. Hero has so far folded to all of these.

V2 is middle-aged Indian gentleman who bought in for the min and posted. He c/c pre and c/f fold flop his first hand in, and this is his second. Sitting on about $170.

V2 open limps in MP. V1 makes it $30, like always.

Hero looks down at 88 in the SB and 3-bets to $75. I would usually just fold this OOP, but V1s consistency with this move makes me sure that I'm ahead of his range, but I don't want to play it OOP against an aggro without initiative. Thoughts?

V2 flats.
V1 looks like he wants to muck but fishy call tempts him in. He calls.

Pot: $225
Flop 9TJ rainbow.

Hero: ??

Your pre-flop 3bet sizing makes no sense.

Care to explain? Reads like someone trying to fight fire with matches.

3 bet to like 120 pf

Why that size?

I prefer a check on the flop with the intention of calling all shoves from Indian (as long as old grinder doesn't re-raise). If Indian has any part of this flop, it is unlikely he folds to a bet anyways. That being said, we can't expect to be called by worse too often. Also, if Indian shoves it puts old grinder in tough spot. I don't expect old grinder will take many stabs at this one with air.

Oh, and your 3-bet sizing too small obv.

Pre: if 3betting I like a sizing of 90-100 (basically a PSB raise). If the villain OTB has multiple barrel tendencies when he has the initiative, or if he is good enough not to pay us off if we make a set, then we can make a case for 3betting pre, otherwise I think I might just call here

Flop: I think it's close between ch/eval and b/f. Reason is if shorty calls a flop bet by hero, it's usually with a better hand and is committed at this point. If taking a b/f line, bet around 110

Why would you ever fold 88 for just one raise OOP preflop?

3 bet here for the reason that you are ahead is not good enough of a reason. 88 has basically no playability and you are going to be forced to fold too often at some point in the hand

Once you get to this flop I'd check and pray it checked through. Prob call a small bet once but fold to a big bet or other heavy action. Too much reverse implied odds. Zero implied odds. Too much of their range is ahead of you or drawing to the good straight. Too easy to get bluffed.

I also don't understand the pf sizing. ~170bb deep, V1 is calling with pretty much his entire range, and if V2 folds, we have a SPR of about 6 OOP with 88. Unless we flop a set, we're going to make more mistakes postflop than V1 will, barring further reads. Might as well make it 100-110 and at least get him to fold hands like QT/K9. Or flat and station if he's barrel-happy. Are there any postflop reads on V1?

Aside: I don't think this is a bad idea at all if most of the table is deep, at least until people start adjusting by 3b large from the blinds or l/rr a lot.

Yeah, I'd 3b to 90, discourage him floating too wide and making your life suck OOP. After V2's ninjaflat and btn calling, I'm not putting much more into the pot. It smacks ranges too hard and you are going to have to barrel off (against v1 obv) very often against a range that gets to play perfectly.

Interesting spot though considering v2's stack and trying to maneuver some fps.

3-bet was a little small as my pot sized raises so far in the session had all got folds and I was looking to capture V1's call on most boards.

You are overvaluing your hand and undervaluing position.

i think I cbet flop close to 0% in this sort of spot... leak? RP?

I agree that cbetting this flop is pretty bad.

I also don't think anyone else will bet light here either.

It's an interesting spot as your hands always are.

If you asked Villains about your 3-bet range what would they say? Is KQ in it?

Would they expect you to go for a check-raise or bet-bet-bet line with pocket tens?

I would lean towards check-raising just because it would be so painful to face a check-raise semi-bluff from Villain. Let's give them the pain!

Question only relevant if hero double or triple barrels.

Again, not sure how this question is relevant to current situation.

Do you even realize what the effective stack is?

And now is where you should ask the question of whether villain is fit-or-fold and what is considered fit to him?

if you really think he is calling and folding "most boards" just 3 bet more junk or even connected stuff like JT suited. this is like the ultimate hand to call with here. I don't get it. it's just such a bad hand at these stack sizes oop. and if he peels flop you are just done...you're never going to have a spot where you can bet a few times or increase your equity (barring a set obv). (and btw even flopping a set doesn't make you win 100% of the time. i.e. if an 8 comes on this turn).

also if you get 4 bet preflop you can't really call and you just wasted an opportunity to get a lot of bets in vs a potentially good hand. once you get to like 300bb+ I wouldn't mind it as much I suppose because then you can call a 4 bet and stuff...and flopping a set that deep can make the times you miss worth it. still wouldn't be a fan personally but that's just preference.

and like others said your sizing is prob way too low. you can make it work I suppose if you are doing this a LOT and taking a lot of stabs. but in general you prob wanna 4x it OOP and 3x or so IP. so i'd go 110-120 here. if you wanna 3 bet a lot even still I'd at least do 90 here oop. you might be able to get away with these small bets to "trap people's way too loose calls" but only if you are in position.

ok so what are you saying that someone is gonna bet fours or something when you check to them?

ok so let's say you xr and they call. then what? who's in pain now?

I dont like the 3bet pf. Whats V1's stack?

I think flatting is prob a bit better pre, 3b is okay though, but obv bigger I think 105 is good. I'd probably c/eval (lean towards c/c vs most action), I think we have too much equity for me to like b/f and b/c could be gross, and this is a board where we will be raised somewhat often.

Also why would you ever fold 88 pre to a btn raise, that's way way too nitty.

I am pretty content with checking a giving up on this board.

I agree with this. 3 betting these middle pairs pre flop doesn't accomplish much unless you are just trying to take it down pre which seems unlikely in this type of game. I would prefer to play a hand like to to set mine and trap.

This is not a good spot to setmine; Villain's range is way too wide and we're OOP. There's just no reason to expect that we can usually get him to put in $300+ behind when we flop a set. Simply folding to the raise is better than setmining. Now, if we're willing to play poker sometimes when we miss rather than just c/f (and can do so profitably against this Villain), that's another story.

Flat pre.

3-betting, especially to this sizing, is beyond awful.

You're turning your hand into a bluff and praying you flop a set.

This was basically my thought. V was a weird combo of aggro and OMC and I didn't think I had the IOs to set mine OOP.

I realized that 3-betting was basically turning my hand into a bluff, butt it was a planned 2-street bluff with some equity to fall back on. Not saying that was optimal, just that it was my plan.

Any more thoughts on flop? As for au4all's questions, V has seen me show down AQo after three betting, so he knows my range isn't nutted, but I don't think he thinks KQ is in my range. I've been playing made hands pretty fast, so I doubt he.thinks I go for a c/r on this board with a set, as he likely thinks I'd be afraid it would check through.

It just smacks their range too much to bet. Your only "good"cards give them a better hand. I think you need to check and just hope to get to showdown. Vs a small bet I'd prob spite peel and fold to further action. They are not going to bluff this board a ton (at least I wouldn't expect it to be bluffed.) but even vs a huge bluffy fish this isn't a great spot.

You don't have to balance with your sets here and bet (at least don't let that be your reason to bet)

If it checks through you have a pretty good spot to bet twice