Reads: V1 is a mid 20s or so guy who seems like a former internet player. I've played like 4 prior sessions w/ him. I've got kind of a 6th sense and feel I can tell if someone has bluffing in their game, but this guy throws me off a bit. He's got the appearance of having bluffing in his game, but I haven't seen many showdowns at all from him so I'm not sure. And he actual folds a decent amount pre and postflop. I'd say he's a good player. V2 is an unknown shortstacker.

We'll start the PAHWM on the flop, since I don't think there's much to discuss pre (it can either go open or limp/call, I went w/ limp call since there were some loose players behind me so raising wouldn't accomplish much).

UTG 8 handed I open limp 66. Folds to V1 on the button who makes it 25. V2 calls in the BB. I flat.

Pot is 75. I've got ~1200, V1's got ~800, V2's got 105 behind.

Flop: 1063. V1 bets 50.

Hero?

I know that in-Game it`s hard to do, but pre is very bad and you probably should just fold after the raise or muck the hand without even investing 5$.

The only reason to limp can be if there are whales at the table that will give you massive action if you flop your set. Good players won`t pay you often enough when you hit your set (you are OOP and you will rep a very narrow value range, when you hit your set and put a lot of money in the Pot without being the PFA). Playing this deep I am more than happy to fold Hands like AQ or 88 UTG, if we have to expect to get flatted a lot and be OOP 180 bb deep vs decent players. Playing big Pots in Position and keeping Pots small OOP is the key to winning deep stack poker.

-> fold 66 pre, at least after a good player raised you. Think about scenarios in which this guy will put in 800 vs you. You have a get him to call a c/r and two significant bets. V2 isn`t important here at all ..

as played:

you can c/c him down or raise very small. I like c/c better .. I think leading is another sexy option. It`s a tough spot anyway, I think I like to c/c here and see what he does on the turn.

I don't really like limp calling as you can now never have an over pair, so when you raise a flop like this you have only sets and flushs in your range.

Since you just limped in, I don't like raising this flop since your hand will be face up as sets++ and only get action from better hands or hands with a lot equity against you (9 outs+)

You need to call, and see what the turn brings.

Folding pre is pretty weak but fine I guess. I generally won't fold 66+ but have folded hands like 2-5's. UP to you I guess

I would just open-raise pre. When I see another good player limping in EP I tend to range him on low-mid pocket pairs, which is what you have. What is your limping range here? I would expect him to play cautiously on flops with multiple low cards like this one. Folding to the raise is nitty, but probably okay if he is going to put you on what you have.

I think I would donk the flop. I expect it to check around a lot. It sucks when you get raised, but he probably shouldn't be raising you too often when you lead because it looks pretty strong.

As played I would call. Any hand that continues vs. a raise is either ahead or has like 35% equity. What are we bluff raising? A benefit of having a donking range here is that we can use hands like 5d5 and they will retain equity well against his continuing range, but not against his b/c range.

Sorry, V2 in the BB donk bet, not the PFR.

Limp pre is fine but I'd fold when the good player raises.

I'm a former Internet player, you'd see very few show downs from me, you'd think I have some bluffing in my game, you'd be right but you'd hardly ever see my bluffs shown down.

If I was V1 I'd read your limp as pocket pairs AXs and decent suited connectors QJs-76s but weighted very heavily towards pairs after your call. Therefore I know you're attempting to set mine me OOP

Therefore I'm going to take a very exploitative line against you on the flop. I'll cbet all my air on J-high+ flops while checking back all my top/2nd pairs and strong pocket pairs. On T/9 high flops I'll bet/fold my overpairs and top pairs. On 8-high- flops I'll check all my air and all my 1-pair hands.

When I flop a set > bottom set or better I'm going to come out betting and keep betting to gii on river. I'll bet NFDs on the flop and then take a free card on the turn if possible, that includes if I have AdAx.

Basically you are never gii with your set against me unless your beat. That being the likely reality vs this villain is why I would fold to his preflop raise. If I were hero I'd accept I made a mistake preflop and look to rectify it on the flop. I'm thinking I can't get max value but I can win most of the time here since V has to make a set+ to continue for 2+ bets. I'd just x/c all streets and hope to win a medium sized pot. If V wants to gii on an unpaired board I figure he has the flush or a bigger set. If he wants to gii on a paired board I think he has a boat but he might be making a mistake with nut flush. That's not a mistake I'd make though

So yeah, x/c to showdown but fold if he wants to bet massive on the turn or river will probably get the biggest pot you can win.

Leading the flop will isolate you vs sets and NFDs and flushes.

X/r the flop will end the hand early against all his bluffs and 1-pair hands and isolate you vs sets, flushes and, depending on raise size; the NFD.

OK, given V2 donks I still feel the same as above about V1 but I now see an opportunity to broaden his range and have him make more mistakes. I'd just flat the short stack's donk bet and hope V1 is now confused about your holding. If I were V1 I'd adjust my read on hero preflop range by adding more SC as well as pocket pairs. I'd be thinking hero would raise his sets at least sometimes but would likely flat his flushes. I don't, as V1, think hero has much AdXx because that's an unlikely limp/call preflop.

Therefore V1 will likely call with his JdJx up to AdAx. That's 12 combos of crushed overpairs V1 can call with and then make further calling mistakes on turn and river. V1 can make some even bigger mistakes if he makes his flush on the river on a paired board. Obviously V1 may also make a calling mistake with an overpair no FD.

If V1 raises flop then you have a tough decision. My read is V1 shouldn't raise flop with pair+FD but only with flushES, NFD or naked overpairs. His objective being to gii headsup vs short stack with overpairs or NFD and to stack you with a big flush.

He has 12 overpairs without FD, AdKx/AdQx/AdJx = 9 combos of NFD and 19 combos of J-high+ flush AKdd-A2dd KQdd KJdd K9dd K8dd QJdd Q9dd J9dd. I don't have any software so you can play around with my ranges and work out your equity.

Instintively I'd call the donk bet and fold to a raise but I can imagine it's actually quite close to breakeven if we continue vs a raise.

I would also fold preflop. I do limp/call with pps, but not against a solid player who raised his button and has position on me. The odds are very high that he doesnt have a strong hand which means you'll never get paid off when you hit a set. I would want at least one or 2 guys (who have a decent stack) to call so I can stack them with a set when the button has garbage.

As played, I raise the flop to $150ish. I'm never calling and letting the button overcall cheaply with a big diamond.

Open limping is fine, and limp calling is fine. The day people actually start folding in full ring poker we can 3x open this.

In this specific hand however he 5x and only other vpip has $100. We can limp fold here and be totally fine.

If it had checked to you, I would definitely donk, for the reasons browni stated.

As played short stack has put you in a weird spot but I'd just flat. People go pretty nuts sometimes when they have an overpair with a high or just AK or whatever, so I'd let btn have that opportunity. He should be flatting all of that but who knows.

Again in case anyone missed it: The shortstack in the BB bet $50 and the action is on hero. The PFR hasn't acted yet

Browni, about my open limping range. I actually do not do this often, but when I do it's going to generally be with 8-6 players left to act. In the later positions, I'll almost never open limp. I also do it more often if the players behind me are loose in calling (i.e. if I open 66 in EP and get flatted, almost always I'm only ~50% equity against a normal calling range and OOP, not a great situation). If I open limp, they may just limp behind w/ those same hands they'd call with.

My limp range here is something like 88-44, AJs, KQs, AJo (sometimes), KQo (sometimes), KJs (rarely), A10s (rarely), AA (rarely).

Read all the replies so far, about the flop decision to flat vs raise.

Doesn't flatting give V1 the opportunity to correctly call with hands like KK, AK? Flatting will give V1 immediate odds of 3.5-1.

Also, about possible bluff ranges in this spot, do you guys assume V1 will have none due to the pot being protected? Or do you guys assume V1 will have some (but less than a normal headsup pot), since the shortstack likely has a fairly wide and not super strong range here, and he could greatly increase his equity with certain hands if we fold flop.

About our bluff range, do you guys not have any? I haven't studied side pot math too much, but I generally just drop around 99% of my bluffs when there's a side pot and nothing in the current main pot.

I would just call and hope button iso's

I don't bluff into side pots hardly ever but I haven't done any mahs on it

Yes calling let's BTN play some hands correctly but I'm doing it so he can misread my range (which I think is face up if we rais the donk bet). It's a small error traded for (hopefully) a larger error.

This.

I actually raised flop to 100. I agreed with alot of you guys' reasons for flatting flop, but at the same time I didn't want to give V1 such incredible pot odds on the flop of ~3.5-1. Min raising gives V1 a more normal looking 2.25-1 pot odds. If I donk bet flop, he'd be getting somewhere around 2.25-1 pot odds.

V1 calls, V2 shoves for 5 more, we both call.

Turn: 8. Side pot is now 390, ~700 effective against V1. Nothing in main pot yet.

Hero?

I'll skip a decision since no replies for a while.

I bet 200 on the turn. V makes it 600.

Can we get away from this? If his range is 100% flushes, it's very close but calling would be slightly -EV (that's ignoring implied odds, which would work both for and against us as even if we miss our boat on the river I don't think we could check/fold for just $100).

I dont think you can fold. There's no way his range is just flushes. I think he has big pairs with a diamond in his range as well. With the pot as big as it is already, I'm just pushing all in and letting the chips fall where they may.

Sorry I missed the turn. As played I would have bet 1/2 pot like you did to get value from his draws and over pairs. I'll get back to you later on V's turn raise.

Big pairs with diamond are 12 combos (AA-JJ).

Flushes are AXdd for 9 combos.

KQ KJ K K9 K8 QJ Q9 Q8 J9 98 97 87 54 in diamonds for 13 combos.

So it's 22 flushes vs 12 posible pair +FD. I doubt V raises AdXx as a bluff since you've shown a lot of strength. It's also a big risk to potentially only win the 200 side pot.

But does he really have anything other than flushes? If he reads you well what can you possibly have here except sets, flushes or a bluff? Your raise on flop and bet on turn both look like they want action and comined with the l/c preflop how are you supposed to have either an overpair or a naked FD with AdXx? He only beats a bluff (of which you have few) with his overpairs so why raise with them, particularly if they have a FD?

I feel that if he were going to go crazy with AdAx he'd have gii on the flop while he still had 2 streets to draw vs a set or flush. I just don't see anything but flushes in his range now. Yes, if he's really good he can see this is a spot where he reps only flushes by raising but to actually execute a bluff he has to think you can fold a small flush or set at this point. Yes if he has Ad he knows you might fold but really, does anyone ever expect FE vs a flush in your game OP?

So you're folding, rage? If his range is only flushes, which I agree is very possible, maybe even the most likely range, then calling would be -EV by around $85.

I'll post results soon.

I'd find it tough to lay it down in game. I don't think I could work out all the combos fast enough to realise he had so many flushes and so little value we beat. I suppose V could have top set too which would really be bad.

In the comfort of my own home with ages to think about it and none of my chips in the pot I can fold here

In game I just don't know. I'd tank a lot for sure. Fold? Maybe...

Results: I tank/called turn. My thought process was at worst case scenario (his range is 100% flushes), calling is only slightly -EV (didn't know it was exactly ~-$85 EV at the time). If there's any chance at all that his range isn't 100% flushes, calling will be neutral EV or slightly +EV.

River was a non-diamond, non-pairing blank. I check/called 100 (not sure why he left like $28 behind). He had a king high flush.