$2/$5 NLHE, 10 Handed, B&M Casino

Hero: $500
MP3: $750
BTN: $1100

Hero is in HJ with 33

Preflop:
4 Folds, MP3 Raises to $15, Hero Calls $15, 1 Fold, BTN Raises to $70, 2 Folds, MP3 Calls $70, Hero Calls $70

Flop: ($212)
A34
MP3 Checks, Hero Checks, BTN Bets $150, MP3 Folds, Hero?

I realize that the implied odds that I was getting preflop were just under what I normally like to get to call with. However I was pretty close so I decided to call anyways. MP3 is basically a total fish but has a nice stack. BTN is a very good thinking player and is going to try and put me on a hand based on the action. What is the best way to extract value? Should I have bet the flop initially? Seeing as I didn't, what is my best course of action now. I am thinking to smooth call the flop and go for a check-raise on any non-club turn, or if a club comes to bet out at the pot immediately. What is the best line I can take to extract maximum value here in this hand?

this is super close pre only because of superfish M3. We are OOP and sucks to get value from a good player even if flop set. I fold pre.

but....
as played you can shove only. and checking was correct.

yea I def raise (shove). the call pre is too thin IMO though (we're supposed to get 10-1 or so to make the call).

Fold PF, check shove flop, ez game.

Here is the question I ask myself when I am in these spots and attempting to extract maximum value.

What would I do if I knew my villain's hole cards?

Or, better:

What would I do for each part of my villain's range?

Let's start with an easy one: Suppose villain has AA. In this case we would fold. But that is such a small part of his range, and we have such a monster, that folding is crazy. Let's move on.

What is the best hand in villain's range that we beat? Answer: AK.

If he would call a ship with AK, then you would ship it.

If he would not call a ship with AK, then you would not ship it.

Has this villain ever folded TPTK face up OTF?

Most villains would call a ship with 2 's on the board...

Now, let's look at other parts of villain's range: {JJ, QQ, KK}. Is your villain the type of player that will shutdown if you call here? If so, then he is the type of villain from which you can not extract any more value than his original c-bet for this part of his range.

Or is he a value maniac, and if you call, will he double-barrel to extract value from the FD?

What about the other part of his range? Given the PF action, villain's range is pretty narrow: {JJ+, AK, AQ}. Or is it? What is he 3-bet%?

OTF, would he fold to a ship with AQ? If not, then we should ship.

If he has AK is he shutting down if the turn is a ?

What does this villain tend to c-bet 1/2 pot with?

To extract max value we must have answer to all of these questions.

But basically, I ask myself how he would play each part of his range. Then I select my line/bet-szie.

I think this is pretty easy shove. Against the thinking player I really can't sees him.putting you on any other hand besides some pair draw flushed draw thing.BC that's what all live players flop shoves on.

Any other play I think your losing value.

Princess your thinking is solid but assumes villian is only thinking about his hand not heroes. Which open already stated he was a thinking player so I assume his hand reading skills are well tuned and can put us on a range.

What range could he possibly put us on to flat and shove here.

And also your inclinations on whether he will call off with tptk or whatever holding is solid but not so black and white. You have to factor in what percentage he's calling off with given range and what percentage he's folding. Etc etc...

Princess, the dilemma with this hand is that if I check-raise the flop all-in in this spot, and BTN is thinking about my hand, he's going to know that I called a 3-bet pre and that most of my hands consist of pairs which have hit the flop. That and AK or possibly AQ, although I think BTN putting me on AQ to be unlikely if he is any good which he is. Or he could possibly put me on hands that I can bluff with here like KK or QQ which essentially missed and I am trying to win the pot by pushing villain out. Therefore check-raising the flop all-in on the flop is the line which most turns my hand face up if BTN thinks about it at all. So I understand everyone telling me to shove now but it's also like the worst option in terms of what villain will put me on. Alternatively I think leading the flop would have been better which usually I like to do with my sets. So I am looking for lines to better play this hand and will best conceal my cards so to speak. I just tend to think that check raising the flop all-in will extract the least value and turn my hand a lot more face up so to speak. But since I have already checked and BTN has bet...what do I do now? Call the flop? Float the turn? Check-raise all-in on turn? What if villain checks behind me? Just curious what others think.

Very hard to out you on 33 and 44

I didn't give an answer as to how to proceed...

To make that decision, We/I must have answers to the questions I brought up.

Based on having played with villain I should have answers to at least the following:

1. How does villain value TPTK;
2. What is his 3-bet range;
3. To what extent does he value-bet/charge draws.
4. Does he shutdown on three tone boards.

And as someone brought up and I forgot to mention:

1. How does villain view hero?

Check/Shove flop

That ace hits villian's 3betting range nicely + he committed himself with his $150 bet I don't think he can fold here. Just shove and collect teh money.

But to answer these questions, you have to understand how your villain thinks, and how he thinks of you.

That might seem that a difficult thing to determine, but it really isn't. Players are always talking about hands, how they play hands, what hands they put players on, and how tight/loose they feel other players are.

They also disclose this information by the way they play.

Basically, I would ask you:

When you made this post, you didn't include any hands your villain has played previously, or any hands he as watched you play. Why not?

That is what matters most. More than what you and he have, it's what you and he think of each other, and how each of you plays the various hands, and whether or not each of you knows this.

So, before you decide, what have you witnessed/heard so far?

I played a hand few weeks ago. The guy I played with is very good. Every time I've played with him, I was playing super-tight because of a huge whale in the game. One time, I was all-in, and before I turned my hand over, and he goes: Oh, you must have the nuts: KJ, you are so tight/solid.

Later on, I raised PF, on a king-high flop, I ship it with another guy. I had KK, and this good player, correctly told the table that I must have KK, prior to me showing my hand.

Basically this guy assumes I always have the nuts. He doesn't think I c-bet if I miss the flop.

Now the hand...

PreFlop($15).
One limp, Villain limps, Hero raises to $60 with KK, Everyone except villain folds.

Flop ($130) J72.
Villain checks, Hero bets $90, Villain calls.

Turn ($310) 3
Villain leads for $175, Hero folds, villain show 77.

Why would I fold? Because I know this guy thinks I have an over-pair. So why the hell is he betting? I know what he thinks of me. The guy knows I have an over-pair. This must be some kind of milking bet. He knows I might control the pot by checking behind, or maybe he makes this bet to induce a raise.

One thing is for sure, he knows I have an over-pair. And there are no draws on the board.

I can't be good there.

So, anyway, back to your hand. What hands have you watched your villain play?

1. I haven't seen his cards enough to accurately gauge this but I am fairly certain that he is not so bad as to overplay TPTK which I would be begging him to do by check-raising the flop all-in, which IMO is the ultimate sign of strength.
2. I am guessing on the BTN it is 99+,AJs-AQ+
3. Villain likes to value bet a lot. However, if villain could believe that I had a draw here then this hand would be much easier to play. I don't think there is any way in hell that he is thinking that I called his 3-bet with QJ.
4. Since he really can't put me on a draw, I find it unlikely, in this spot I don't think he is shutting down especially if he holds the K

1. He must view me as TAG or TAGish or in the very least tight.

I haven't seen his cards very much but I know that he is good. He prefers to 3-bet when possible and he may vary his play with an occasional bluff. But that is just what I presume as I haven't seen his cards all that much. I noticed he raises more in position. The only hand I think of is with AQ where he flopped 2-pair and won a nice sized pot in a pre-raised pot. He takes his time with decisions and is obviously putting his opponents on a range. At least that is what I think he is doing while he is deciding.

against said player, i just call here and pray that no club comes to kill the action. at least somewhat. i dont think he stops betting with a club, just maybe he intuitively makes a probe bet rather than a larger bet for value. soooo...i think i try to c/c flop and c/stick turn regardless of card. ez game. (given the desc. of villain)

against fish? i check and shove my stack right in his butthole as he calls w/ AK no club

Okay, so if he is c-betting in this spot, he probably has {XY, AA, AJ+}.

After his c-bet, and your call of the c-bet, the pot is $515, and you only have $280 behind.

You want to make sure you get $280 more from this guy. Your read seems to imply that villain will fold AJ to a ship. So shipping might not be the best option.

In this case slow-playing might be best. The down side is that another club could kill you, or your action.

On the other hand, if he has AJ, he will probably ship all non-club turns. (Since you only have $280, the pot is $512, and he doesn't want to see another club.)

So wrong. And c/c flop to get fancy as a slowplay is terrible as well. It appears though that hero is already convinced of the best play so it makes me wonder why post it. Anyhow, you have the correct answer, so its up to you how you proceed.

Yeah well villain can still re-raise us if I lead the flop as opposed to letting him call a crai? By the way you are supposed to lead with your set most the time anyway. I don't know why this time is so different. Just because villain 3-bet? I'm not convinced how to play this but the way that everyone is suggestion also turns my hand the most face up.

I know you say don't get fancy with it, but everything I am getting value from (Ak,AQ) I am crushing. All else that is beating me I am way behind here, basically AA or 44 (44 unlikely villain will 3-bet pre with), which if Villain has he can win a big pot off of me. Is it really so fancy to let a card come off and call the flop when no card can hurt me that much since I am in a way ahead/way behind scenario therfore better concealing my hand here? CRAI on the flop is the obvious play and villain will have to think that my range consists of sets here considering he is a thinking player.

However, the SPR is under 3. If he's a thinking player, he knows that he has to call because you can have Ax worse than his. While you aren't going to be stopped by the turn, all twos, fives and clubs will freeze a TP hand and potentially let him get away. Your original question was to get maximum value. This is how.

I imagine you'd check/shove with a fd here so that's what you should be doing now.

I'm uncertain what you expect villain to put you on to call a small raise then call a small 3 bet, then check and call half your stack on that flop. Check/shoving atleast may make him hope you have a flush draw of some kind but after your pretty terrible call pre there isn't much else you can do here.

Alright, well thanks everyone for the responses. I know the call pre wasn't the greatest but it wasn't the absolute worst either. I just wasn't getting quite the implied odds I need to call here but I was close. I did check shove the flop and villain tanked for a while. Eventually he folded. He went on and on about how he had AK and kept telling everyone it was a good fold. He needled me for about 2.5 hours asking me what I had but I never told him. He even voiced that he thought my range consisted of mostly sets in this spot. The fact that he got away from the hand and that he called my hand pretty much bothered me and is partly why I posted this hand. Thanks to everyone for all the responses.

It was a great call, you spiked a set.

Normally I'd never say anything but after about an hour, I'd just have to say, "All I can tell you is that was a great fold for me, too."

And eventually, it will be.