Playing TPTK hands perfectly is probably one of the biggest leaks worth plugging, and it usually comes down to knowing when to hold 'em and knowing when to fold 'em. I think I normally have a good handle on it but still get myself in tricky spots occasionally. Here is one from the other night.

V is a mid-20's 2/5 reg. I have maybe played with him once before but no memorable hands. I do see him around the room often enough though, so he's more than a rec player. The lone HH of note was the following:

$1000 effective stacks - within the first 5 minutes of our table opening, a tightish 2/5 full-time grinder opens to $20 UTG (V knows this guy plays for a living), a losing rec player (by my own account) calls OTB, V 3! to $80 from the SB, UTG folds, BTN calls. Pot $180 - Flop: A85r check/check, turn J, V bets $105, BTN calls $105, river 3, V bets $225, BTN calls, V says "Ace," BTN shows AK and SB mucks. So his holding is something like AQ, AT, maybe any Ax that didn't hit two pair. So prone to aggression.

OTTH,

Effective stacks: $800

V limps UTG
Hero raises to $25 in EP with AK
Folds to V who calls $25

Pot: $50

Flop: K T 6

V checks
Hero bets $25
V calls $25

I actually wanted to delay c-bet this to try to get two streets on the turn and river since I know V can be prone to aggression but I kind of spaced out for a minute and ended up just betting it. Possible range for V could be KQs, KJs, QJs, maybe KTs, 99-77.

Pot: $100

Turn: 7

V bets $100 (tosses out a lone black chip)
Hero?

Feels like a situation where we either fold now or have to call the turn and river. I hate the check/call --> lead turn line, especially with a PSB

I probably fold here, unless you are known by V to fold to aggression or fold one-pair type hands easily? So many hands beat you that he could limp/call with: KT, 67, 89, a set. This is very different from the hh. I do wonder why he bet so much, though.

Against the described villain I would probably call turn planning to call down on the river. But honestly figuring out when to get away from TPTK and when to hold on is something I sometimes struggle with as well, so I'll be interested to read what other people have to say about this.

V's pot-sized bet almost makes me want to call, too. I would need a read or to know more about how V might see H -- in V's mind is H more likely to call down with one pair (calling station type) or more likely to fold to a bet like this?

C-betting is good.

A check gives up way too much value from Kx, Tx, QJ, AJ, 87s, 98s, 97s, etc.

A check also allows so many action killing turn cards before you get any value.

Just fold the turn. Obviously this flop texture hits you hard when you open in EP. And he probably doesn't expect you to fold top pair. And so I'm happy folding top pair.

Though I do disagree that you have to call river if you call turn.

Villain's range can definitely change from a turn bet to a river bet.

I think we are only giving up value vs. those hands if we think they are in his UTG limp/call range. I am excluding pretty much that entire batch of hands from his range as I think he is competent enough to:

a) not open limp Kx, Tx, QJ, AJ, 87s, 98s, 97s

b) certainly not limp/call with those hands

I don't think a guy that is willing to 3! Ax out of the SB vs. an UTG open is the type to open limp trash like those hands which we give up value to by checking which leaves us in a WA/WB scenario.

Driest turn card for him to bluff, even really bad rec players recognize that.

On the other hand, fact that he checked flop to try to get value with his Ax shows that he's at least a thinking player.

To eliminate bunch of connectors from his range is not optimal in LLSNL, given that people are prone to tilt and do weird things such as "I am leaving soon, and I gotta get unstuck," or "87 is my favorite hand."

Few easy signs to fold:

1. V doesn't expect anyone in the player pool to fold anything of value on that dry turn card, and therefore at the bare minimum, he would recognize that there is little fold equity on the subconscious level. Is there history involved? Doesn't sound like it.

2. Stop-n-go. He may actually consider turn to be a wet card by putting you on 88/99 - no way in hell he's gonna give you a free ride to catch 4-outer.

Reasons to call? You guys go ahead.

If V is competent, this is a fold. Sets, KT, 89 all in villain's range.

The only thing that leads me to call and fold to a reasonable bet OTR is the fact that our flop sizing is on the small size. Certain thinking villains will take different lines to fold out better.

Unless v is a weak player, I don't see him taking a line like this with a worse king. And without stronger reads, I can lay this down.

Call.

Hero's hand is under-repped by putting in a smallish c-bet on the flop. The HH is also interesting. It seems that V is aggressive and is not afraid to put money into the pot. I would call and evaluate the river.

Why only 1/2PSB here JB?

Because I deemed it to be a WA/WB scenario and wanted to keep the pocket pairs and weaker portion of V's range in the hand. There's only 4 combos of QJs to worry about so I want all the 4 and 2 outers to stick around.

Raising to $25 in EP and blasting away at a K-high flop is high-beaming AA or AK. Why divulge the strength of our hand and allow V to play perfectly?

1/2 PSB from me here could be anything. AQ, JJ, 88.

IMO smaller bet sizing leads thinking opponents to increase their bluffing frequencies.

I'd bet $35 with my whiffs, sets, draws and AK, etc - if a thinking, sticky player is willing to call with 88 they'll call a slightly larger bet IMO.

Right, a thinking opponent sees the weak bet and picks a horrible spot to bluff...

Then you should definitely still bet.

First, he shouldn't limp/call almost anything. So let's not assume he has a certain range here that couldn't have hit the board or given us value. He can definitely have some of those hands.

Next, villain won't give you future value with his "way behind" hands like Tx or lower pocket pairs. Checking the flop misses value against some hands and gives a free card to many others. In this case, that free card offers villain a free roll. Maybe, in the case of say 55, it's just a 4% free card. Doesn't matter. If he does have a way behind hand and he won't give you flop value or turn value (certainly a hand like 55 won't), then next best outcome is you bet flop and he folds away his equity, no matter how small.

And hand like JT gets 5 free roll outs and more equity enhancing (drawing cards) when you check. If JT and 55 whiff turn, it's not like you're going to get value. So again, since you can get some flop value and villain isn't likely to put money in the middle unimproved with his "way behind" hands, you need to c-bet.

However you look at it, flop is a definite bet.

1) Villain sees a weak bet,

2) Encounters a safe card,

3) BOMBS AWAY!!!

I'm not saying this a bluff that often. In fact, 99% of the time this line is for fat value. It's very strong looking.

Without reads, I'm folding without much thought.

Can anyone guess why the V would bet so big on turn with a value hand? I'm playing devil's advocate, but just wondering. Also, OP, you haven't explained how V sees you.

I guess we'll have to ask V than, huh?

I dunno, we've been at the table for two hours. V is two seats to my right. He saw me buy in for $500. I'm sitting on $800 now and haven't shown down a hand. Haven't played many hands but always coming in for a raise when I do.

Probably thinks his bluff equity is low when I am interested in a hand.

How can you make those assumptions? It sounds like your basic argument is we should bet the flop and take the pot down now because there is no way V will put any money in when behind.

That's where I disagree. I think we can make money from Tx that would have folded to a flop bet but will call a turn and possibly a river bet. We can make A LOT of money from ATs that would have definitely folded to a flop bet and now will potentially stack off if an Ace spikes OTT.

With all that said, I still did bet the flop, but I think there is certainly a way to extract additional value by checking the flop on occasion.

Are you saying you never have a value checking range on the flop? If there was ever a time to have one, I think it would be vs. a thinking reg.

Fold.

Because hero isn't likely to fold.

Hero can check back showdown value hands including top pair.

Hero will often bet/fold < 100, but he may call a larger bet in position.

Tons of reasons, really.

Of course I'm not saying you should never have a flop value checking range.

I am saying not with this hand in this spot.

The AT example is no good. You make it sound like you're slow playing so V can catch up. Your hand is way too weak and the board incredibly suboptimal for a slow play scenario. And if V "catches up" in this spot, it's too often to a better hand. Now, you might not have meant "slow play" ... but when you talk about AT improving so you can get value, that means you're trying to slow play.

There definitely are some time to slow play top pair. Not here.

I also think some Tx can peel the flop. I have no reason to think Tx will be more likely to peel on turns.

When rec players suddenly wake up OTT with aggression, TPTK is a losing pony unless you have a really specific read to the contrary.

I generally think the "johhny chan play" check,call flop and bet turn usually indicates weakness or medium strength type hand....even when it's close to a pot sized bet (exception to this rule are very passive ABC players). Only hands I could see him showing up with here that you're behind would be 67suited or a very oddly played AA. Don't see this line taken often with sets or flopped 2 pair. Calling turn and see what he does on the river. Think he shows up with Kx type hand most of the time and simply doesn't want you checking turn behind bc he thinks he's ahead with you underrepping hand on flop...pot sized and with no flush draw does put a twist on things though.

Bet larger on flop though...

I agree that you should have a check calling value range btw...don't like the board and situation for that here though.

So many advocates for folds. V may be competent and we may be behind, but we're ahead of a lot of his possible holdings. Could V be getting bold with a hand like AQ, AJ, or KQ, KJ, or QJ?
I like betting the flop here but I like slightly bigger sizing. I also like slightly bigger preflop but that's a different thing.
As played, OTT, do we really think V is leading with his big hands or would he possibly go for a check raise?
I'm calling here, re evaluating river and probably calling close to a PSB on river.
Against a lot of Vs, I'd consider a raise in this spot because this feels stabby. But I think probably call --> raise --> fold.
Why would V lead a PSB OTT with a hand that beats AK in a spot like this? That's the part I can't resolve so I call. I think he'd check raise two pair or a set, or lead river for value if we check behind.

Seems like the consensus is leaning slightly more towards fold than call but it seems close.

Effective stacks: $800

V limps UTG
Hero raises to $25 in EP with AK
Folds to V who calls $25

Pot: $50

Flop: K T 6

V checks
Hero bets $25
V calls $25

Pot: $100

Turn: 7

V bets $100 (tosses out a lone black chip)
Hero calls $100

I thought we were a little too strong to just give up to a bet here. As wj94 says, "it's hard to make a pair."

Pot: $300

River: 6

V bets $250
Hero?

Hmm well that kind of sucks. Is he bluffing QJ missed OESD? I didn't put TT in his open limping range and the six pairing on the river makes quad 6's incredibly unlikely. Did he float the flop with 77?