V1 ($350, UTG) - 25 y.o. white guy. Spewy fish who came to the table an orbit or two ago with a cocktail already in hand. Somewhat agro, but mostly just clueless.

v2 ($650, SB) - Late-40's black guy. Has been at the table about an hour, seems like a solid player so far. Has played very few hands, so no real reads other than him being a tight player.

Hero ($585, UTG+1) - White guy, early 30's. Reasonably active, but haven’t shown down any bluffs, so the table probably views me as a tight/ABC-style player.

V1 minraises UTG to $10. Hero makes it $35 from UTG+1 with QQ. Folds around to V2 in the SB, who shoves for $550 more effective. V1 folds. Hero ???

I had absolutely no idea what to make of a cold 4bet shove out of the blinds for 8x the size of the pot from this type of villain. We’re not getting that great of a price (call $550 to win $620), but it’s hard to fold a hand as strong as QQ preflop when it seems like villain could potentially have a lot more than just AA/KK in his range here.

But can he? What hands would we expect a tight player to have when he raises this big out of the blinds? If his read on the situation was that I’m targeting the fish’s weak open with my early position 3bet, then I guess he could conceivably have some weak hands in his range here. But if that’s the case, why risk his whole stack? Why not just make it $200 and get the same amount of fold equity? (This is especially true if he’s trying to target the fish, because the fish is only $350 deep.)

Any thoughts on what we can expect V2's range to be in this spot?

Getting just 1.1:1 on our money, is this just a fold without a specific read that villain can be 4betting light here?

Despite V1 being a fish, your range is still obviously fairly strong to be doing this from UTG+1. (It's not like a $35 3b is always getting folds from several players w/ position on you and a fish.) V2 would be terribad to be jamming $585 effective light to win $42 of dead money against an opponent whose range includes a nontrivial portion of AA/KK. If V2's range is JJ+/AK, it's a breakeven call, and I'd discount JJ/QQ/AK quite a bit.

There are some tight players who like to make huge overbet shoves with AA because people sometimes level themselves into calling off 100bb+ with AK/QQ/JJish hands.

You don't know enough about him to have any idea what his range is. Typically, 4bets are KK+ and for many AA only.

He could be the type who doesn't know what to do with JJ and AK, but even if that's the case, you dot know and you'll get a free look in a protected pot.

This is a pretty easy fold.

Fold.

Don't level yourself against these types of players. The probability that he has exactly AA/KK is just too high. The first time that someone does something this stupid, we have to give them credit for a huge hand. However, if he starts shoving with some frequency, then we can snap him off with QQ.

^^^^ THIS ^^^^

Last night it was AA.

Also, NEVER SHOW IT.

The faster you fold the less difficult your decision looks. Even if his range is AK and JJ+ it's a good. I thinks it's a pretty standard fold especially since we have only invested 7bb.

fold and be happy about it. He is not doing this with jacks or ace king by a long shot. A tight player shoving everything in after two previous raises? snap fold and thank him for not flatting you.

aces and king

yes without any reads from a tight player 4betting light, it's a fold. (I don't know too many aggressive players in general who also don't 4bet light unless they had room to 4bet/fold)

To summarize:

-V2 has a decent stack
-V2 seems like a solid player
-V2 has played very few hands
-V2 appears to be a tight player
-V2 is shoving into another V viewed as a "clueless", "spewy fish"

If these were your reads, I'm folding.

OK, so I guess folding is the unanimous suggestion. I did in fact fold, but in game I didn't feel like it was such an easy decision. The one possible hand that stuck out in my mind was JJ, since for some reason people seem to spaz out with it preflop a lot (and then justify their play by saying "I hate jacks"). But yeah, even being optimistic about V2's range I agree that QQ should definitely be a fold here.

Follow up question: what do we do if we had KK in this spot? Does villain have AK and QQ in his range often enough to make this a call? Or do we put his range at KK+ and still fold?

Sent from my mobile device using 2 + 2 forums.

Snap call with KK...folding KK pre is generally -EV

KK is a call unless villain is a known nit. The difference between KK and QQ here is surprisingly big. If you put him on a tight QQ+ range then KK is coin flipping with some dead money in the pot, while QQ is crushed. If you put his range on JJ+ then KK is ahead 2/3 of the time and QQ is behind 2/3. If you put him on a wider JJ+/AK range then QQ is somewhat -EV and KK is +EV because it does so much better when villain turns up with AK.

For playing here to be good you have to have enough history with villain to put him on a range here that is helpful to you. If you know villain would never shove AA, he would always bet smaller to entice the fish to call, or that villain does this with some wide TT+/AQ+ type range then you can call.

Easy fold.

yeah pretty much folding, thats why i hate 3betting with QQ.

in LLSNL, 4bet is always KK and AA, unless seen doing otherwise. you won't lose a lot with this assumption and they can't easily exploit your 3bet all the time for they can only do it once every 1.5-2hrs to be legit.

so here's the problem I have with the 'easy fold' arguments

if Villain looks like a decent player, why in Dawkins' name would be jam for so much here. Surely a good player bets 95-120 with AA and KK here

it would be useful to know the time of day this happened too. 2pm makes this a different scenario to 2am.

for me, the size of the bet and his position make his range full of those nasty hands that are difficult to play out of position. Namely 1010, JJ, AK and potentially KK. I don't have stove handy to do the math on this, but I may include 1 combo of AA in here and do the math on that.

I don't think this is as obvious a decision as you guys are making it seem

I'm with Feel here,in my experience the over sized 4 bet shove from oop is JJ almost 3/4's of the time,with a decent percent being AK.Any live reads?... Did he seem comfortable?

Not from an older tight player who hardly plays any hands. Of course he can show up with jacks or ace king 7% of the time here but most of the time this player will show up with kings.

Do older tight players who hardly play any hands 4bet jam AK or JJ for over 100bb's?

This hand went down at about 10:30 p.m. on Saturday night at a table that had been fairly passive up until this point.

Good points, and I agree that this isn't as easy of a fold as some people are making out (although I do still think it should be a fold). Normally, it is true that 4bets at LLSNL represent KK+, but I don't know if that really holds in this situation where the fish minraised UTG and then I 3bet to just 7bb. My thinking was that the small sizing might have induced the villain to spaz out with a hand like JJ or TT.

I would think the opposite, these bets can both indicate strength especially the initial min-raise, sometimes an UTG minraiser is begging someone to re-raise him. if he had 1010 you would think he would flat and I don't think tight players would ever overplay JJ like that.