Disclaimer: I have played about 20 hours of NLHE in the past 2 years. Have been playing Omaha variants pretty exclusively.

Not my regular card room. I don't know anyone here and have been at the table less than 2 orbits.

Villain 1 - weak tight fish. Has limp / folded like 3 or 4 times since I've been at the table.

Villain 2 - has seen a lot of flops. Has c-bet after raising preflop 2x so far. Has 3 bet preflop once.

We have J8

Effective stacks are $500

Pre: V1 min raises to $10 from EP. Hero calls. V2 raises to $30. V1 calls. Hero calls.

Flop: $95 - 3 players

J87
V1 checks, we check expecting V2 to cbet, which he does and bets $60. V1 folds, we c/r to $150. V2 thinks for about 30 sec and calls.

At this point I feel confident I am going to stack AA-QQ.

Turn: $395 - heads up

A
Hero??

Given my read, this is one of the worst cards in the deck. All this assumed hands either beat me and have me drawing very thin or dead or it kills my action vs KK/QQ.

All in as previously planned with 3/4 PSB left?
Check / call to let him bluff at it?

prob ck-r a bit more - go ahead and shove the turn as you would with a flush/straight/set - you can't let QQ/KKs see a free riv.

Damn that turn. I think it totally ruined your hand.

V b/c wet flop in 3bet pot 3way with TPTK+ or a strong draw. I kind of suspect V gii on flop with the straight and at least some QQ+ Therefore V has less than 6 combos of KK/QQ to call your turn shove with. Beating you are 3 of top set, 1 of JJ, maybe 6 of AJ and some unknown quantity of flushes with KXss/QXss and SC.

As disgusting as it sounds I think you have to x/f the turn. Puke!

I suppose a few combos of badly played TT/99 might show up on the turn but you're still overwhelmingly crushed when V continues turn.

I kinda wanna fold pre flop twice. But whatever.

We can still ck/cl the turn as V should still be betting AKxs, AQxs, KKxs, QQxs hands, and KQs is really the only flush that v has.

I'd also go bigger on the flop.
It's pretty soaking wet and V won't likely fold his overpair to a $200 bet which makes it easier for us to shove most turn cards.

@ Rage
The idea of V having 'lots of KXss and QXss combos' is utterly ridiculous imo.

I didn't say lots, I said unknown. Most likely just KQss like you say. Maybe KTss QTss too.

Still, as ridiculous as it might seem, I do see really bad light 3bets all the time and they are frequently with suited junk in position from active aggressive players like V2 appears to be. Combine this with V's flop call when I expect he 3bet gii on flop with lots of his TPTK+ and I think V betting or calling range on turn contains more flushes and better 2pair than we might expect.

Yeah, I suppose V might be able to call the flop raise with two overs and back door FD/straight draws. Do you think V cold do this with KQo with a spade?

He can certainly bet the turn when he pairs the Ace with AK/AQ. I expect he probably checks behind with KK/QQ/KQ though.

Someone probably needs to do an equity calculation for our hand vs some reasonable ranges for V betting turn...

I cannot even comprehend how this is anything other than a protection shove w 3/4 PSB eff. He easily could have peeled a bunch of hands <J8 that are extremely unlikely to bet turn but still have decent equity. Some of those hands might even call a bet sometimes. Hero is only getting it in dead against 4 combos and thin against only a handful of others, but allowing a hand like red QQ to potentially overcoat us, or TT to straighten/flush out, or some A9 type combo that was poorly played to Bink Bink when it goes ck ck, ck ck decimates the EV of the flop ck-r in the first place. Maybe he folds a better hand sometimes (AJ?). He also loses flush combos on this turn, and while we may shove headlong into a flush, it's still only a small portion of his range after card removal/his line/this turn.

Not our favorite card but based on villain description think we still have to shove

Dude c'mon fold pre AINEC. You are 100 BB effective in EP/MP with a garbage hand.

Fold pre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3! pre >>> call/fold pre > call/call pre

x/r flop a little bigger as played. turn is standard shove.

I'm pretty much won over to shoving turn for protection at this point. The thing I hadn't considered properly is the fact that getting V to fold his KK-99 wins us $395 a lot of times we shove turn and combined with V calling with a handful of AX and NFDs this likely makes up for the times V calls and is ahead and we are dead or don't draw out to a boat vs his flushes.

Fold pre to the initial raise IMO

AP I think flop c/r sizing is the real issue here and I'm probably still jamming turn but would be much more comfortable doing it if we c/r'ed flop to ~180-200 and it was for ~270-290 into ~460-500

I agree with bigger flop check raise and even though the turn sucks, you need to shove anyway. Lots of people will call that smallish flop check raise with AK. Hes not folding AK now. Especially if he has the Ks. Hes most likely not folding KsKx or QsQx either.

probably should have mentioned in the op, but this was like the softest 2/5 game i have seen in a while. i think calling a fish's 2x raise with J8s is pretty reasonable here. then after the tiny 3 bet and the weak fish's call, i'm getting 3.5/1 on my call. agree to disagree.

totally agree that i should have c/r bigger though.