Yeah I like call flop to raise turn, although probably wouldn't raise on hearts since we don't know if V is capable of barreling hearts with air.

Flat/raise turn>raise flop>>>>flat/fold to turn barrel.

Yea I apolagize. I was tired the other day and misread the positions in the hand. Though hero was in blind and this was a check-raise play semi-bluff on flop. Which I dislike. And you are right Daniel I think he will double barrel high cards in the proper position. But probably be more cautious if he had position and we check/called the flop by checking back a higher % of the time.

As is I like this flop raise a lot more seeing that you have position on the turn, You gain some equity protection vs random overcards/gutshots etc. And if he calls, we can continue and double barrell on coordinated and flushing cards.

But if you think he is going to double barrell with a high frequency as well, then proper play may just be to grab your balls and call him down and/or improve. What would be important here is also how thin he will valuebet the turn with better hands when we call flop. Not only his double barrell frequency. If he bets thin for value then we can raise turn because he will have both a hi double barrell frequency and a thin value range that can't necessarily stand resistence. We could say float flop and raise a lot of double barrels especially on flush type cards. Could be a great spot for value vs stuff like aj,aq,ak with the 4th heart on turn. A lot of lowstakes players will bet/call with the nutdraw and check/fold river unimproved for example holding the ah

With regard to sizing I think 70-90ish area is fine. Going over 100 is lowering the opportunity cost. Also it doesn't need to be a lot if he has a lot of air/highcards in his range. He might take one off regardless sizing on flop with something like 1010 hoping to get to showdown or that we will shutdown on certain runouts while folding to turn pressure. Smaller flop sizing we allow ourselves a better opportunity to double barrell him now risking less money on the turn as well.

Flat/raise turn is fine but I actually prefer the flop raise to 90ish myself.

You have plenty of options on the turn if called and I think we definitely still have decent FE vs an overpair here, described villain has a pretty wide c-betting range and he can give us a lot of credit on this flop imo

+1

id prefer to call flop if i thought he would check most of his range ott

also make sure you flat a decent amount of fds on this flop

and obviously call pre

1. bet for value
2. take a free card if checks or call if he bets and I get reasonable immediate and/or implied odds on the bet

Aesah and ATsai, if V calls and checks turn, would you favor double-barreling or taking the free card? And if double barreling, what cards would you double barrel?

I probably would have raised in the past, but nowadays I like calling here better. We have position and if he does have a pretty wide range, we're ahead and in position. Getting reraised on this flop is pretty gross as it lets him play his overpair hands perfectly.

Not sure if you have any idea what his double barreling % looks like, but for TAGs, they tend to cbet a lot and slow down on turns when they haven't hit. I'd feel pretty good about our hand if he checks turn (depending on the card of course) and feel pretty bad about it if he barrels again.

So I like checking behind as he'll more than likely define his range on the turn, without you risking another 90 chips to try to define it on the flop. Not only that, but calling also allows us more maneuverability in position on turn and river with regards to stack depth which maximizes our positional advantage.

I like raising turn over raising flop because we'll gain more FE from flush draws and also gain more FE from his overpairs since a turn raise looks a lot stronger than a flop raise. If called we can still barrel on a heart/8/A river and expect those cards to help our range more than his because of the turn raise. The only downside to this is if he elects to go for pot control with overpair type hands on the turn that would've folded to the flop raise, but even then it's not the end of the world and we can still fire heart/8/A rivers.

How so?

^In the respect that 77-JJ often have to deal with a ton of boards with multiple overcards that make continuing with them oop tricky. On this board and these stacks, if you raise and he comes over the top for any decent amount, he'll be committed and will not have any real decisions on future streets. QQ-AA also get put into some difficult spots on lots of turns and rivers on this board, esp oop, so having the option for him to get it in on the flop generally allows him in essence "to play these hands perfectly" by giving him a binary option of getting it in on the flop or getting out. I hope that makes sense.

yes does.

I love it when my opponents play perfectly by folding the best hand

Or get it in drawing almost dead

But yea i guess he plays perfectly if he jams every time you do this with 33/77 and folds every time you do this with 44/55/66.

I just feel that if he has over pairs, his range is ahead of ours when we raise and he gets to get it in on the flop instead of being in potentially difficult spots on a lot of turns and rivers. We can obv have a set here when we raise, but a competent player will likely realize that our range is much wider than that and I feel he will tend to get it in and feel good about it. That's all I meant.

You really haven't raised a cbet in 3-4 hours? Hard to believe but ok. If I waited that long to build that image I'd probably try and utilize a multi way flop squeeze w more dead money in there.

I kinda am expecting the v to call this flop raise pretty often, what is your plan for turns? What is your history w this v? Competent tag is such a vague description

Hmm.. that almost makes it sound like repopping everyone's raise OTF will make you play your OOP overpairs perfectly - and of course that's not the case. So unfortunately I'm still not getting it

Bravo! ROFL

Well sure if he knew we were raising that wide he could marginally gii with an overpair but if all we're raising here is sets, 2pair, straights, and flush draws then gii on the flop with an overpair would be a significant mistake.

Well our range here is 2-pairs, sets and draws. So it's kind of balanced and that's what makes it hard to play against our raise.

So I stoved AA vs 77-33,65s,54s on 4h5c6h.

Guess what, AA is at 39%. We can dilute our range by throwing some suited hearts in there for FDs but it seems overpairs will still be behind. So it actually seems that our range is ahead of villain's and a competent villain should not feel great about a raise on this flop. I know I'd be freaked out with AA facing a raise here from almost any player.

That's certainly true. I was making an assumption that two competent TAGs playing a pot against one another from late position would make it more likely that ranges would be wider than that.

I can definitely be wrong though here. There's a lot of guess work in my hand reading in this hand.

What else would my range include here?

OK well that's a tighter range than I would have given, so my assumptions could have been off. I would think bare FDs and 76, 86, 87 type of hands are all capable of raising here, plus some air which I don't think can ever be fully discounted.

I would be, too. I definitely would be. But against what I've perceived the range of the button flop raiser to be, if I had AA in the HJ and he raised to 120 I'd probably get it in at these stacks.

If, however, the flop raiser's range (hero) is the one you've stated or one that's tighter, that play is obviously not very good.


Very interesting for me to hear some possible raising ranges for a button TAG facing a standard cbet on a low connected board against another TAG who opened in late position.

Why is that so hard to believe? Flop raises are not very common at $2/$5 unless the table is extra aggro. Many $2/$5 players can play for 8 hours or longer without raising anyone's c-bet.