I think his point was that anyone who 3bets AQ is already in the top 10-20% of preflop aggression in LLSNL, so it's not really underrepping your hand with the the loose passive masses, because that's exactly how they'd play it.

Of course, the fact that the hand is being played like the loose passive masses is enough reason by itself to question the move.

I don't disagree with this, but flatting preflop is pretty bad.

I think the point he's making is that the only reason to flat preflop is if you can stack off here profitably. Flatting when you can't stack off on this board is bad.

LOL @3betting AQ to $200 pre.

The guy is described as tight. You played the hand fine if you fold turn.

maybe that's what he's saying. I still don't entirely agree with that reasoning either though.

Let's re-iterate that I suggested I would probably 3bet too. I'm doing it more for the value in the money that's already in the pot, more so than the fact that AQ is ahead of his range, because we don't know if that's true for calling ranges.

We aren't given that much info. OP says that 3bets are all getting called. But that maybe $20 opens getting 3bet to $60. Not $25 opens getting 3 callers and getting squeezed to $100-150. I'd think your AQ is doing pretty bad if we make it $200 as suggested.

If we flat here, we don't have to stack off to justify it. Keeping in worse Qx hands and Ax hands is a good thing, and we can get value out of them post flop. That value just isn't present when faced with the action we are faced with though.

In keeping with the "repping" theme. dgi is suggesting we are under repped preflop because we don't 3bet. But once the the A97 board rolls of and we call the cbet, we are no longer under repped. AQ is definitely in our range. As is A9, A7, 97, 99, 77 (even those we are c/r or leading those hands some % of the time), to go along with our weaker hands like T8s, 86s and some Ax hands maybe. Then he wants to shove the turn, in essence over repping our hand because that shove is going to be super scary for any competent villain unless dgi is a maniac staking off with any TP every hand.

edit: This is slightly embarrassing, but I have read the action wrong all along. I thought the preflop raiser was the villain. It still doesn't change that much though, given there was still 5 to the flop, and he got two callers on the flop. Which means his turn bet range is still very strong.

Uggg...

the problem I guess with this argument is that this is just a situation I would never find myself in, like ever. Not reraising/squeezing with AQ while on the BTN is just criminal.

But for the sake of argument, villains will stack off 100bb with TPMK all the freaking time. I can't tell you how many times I've seen this situation and villains going to war with AT and AJ type hands for 100bb ESPECIALLY when there is a flush draw on the board which makes players overvalue TPWK because they want to get the drawers out or assume that anyone shoving is automatically drawing to the flush.

Yes, AK and AA is in the range as well but you are dreaming if you think the "only" hands villains are willing to stack off with are 2p or better especially when there is a flush draw on the board.

Anyways, what I find happens whenever we make a mistake (like not squeezing pre) we put ourselves at a severe disadvantage post flop. And passive play post flop will usually end up with us folding vast majority of times.

You know, I think the argument is going off on a tangeant. I didn't say we were underrepping our hand per say... I was responding to one of the posts about just flatting with a hand we think is best...

And for the record i'm not a maniac. I just am aggressive post flop and don't have qualms about shoving/playing for stacks for 100bb when the pot is worth it.

overall, the problem I have with all this is just one of compounding mistakes and trying to salvage the hand/pot after we've made them...

but again, this is just a situation i'm never finding myself in, like ever...

Your argument reminds me of a regular in my game that stacks off to me preflop with AJ because he saw me four bet AT one time.

Sure, I can have AT once in a great while under ideal circumstances, but I can always have AQ/AK, JJ+.

Here, sure they COULD have AT, AJ once and a while. But they will almost always play their nutted hands this way. You have to be able to assign a very high frequency to those worse Ax hands and draws, to make up how terrible your equity is against their value range.

I wasn't trying to suggest you were. I'm just suggesting a shove by you in that situation should be very scary for AK unless you are a maniac (and even then it's still scary).

dgi, I have another question for you.

You say not 3 betting AQ here on the Btn when you are likely ahead of their opening range is criminal.

Do you apply this reasoning to say a spot where you are likely to be HU if you just call instead of 3bet? Like if MP opens and you are the btn with AQo and two very tight guys in the blinds?

If I can get heads up with an aggro player by just flatting and have position on him, then absolutely I will flat and underrep my hand.

But i'm less likely to do this against tricky aggressive players who have a HUGE raising range and have no qualms about applying pressure post flop and double/triple barreling. So I will 3bet against them to better define their range and to set myself up for post flop play.

Back to your question, if the player is aggro and I have a decent range/profile on them then yeah, I'll flat in position so I can own them post flop if i'm fairly sure we will be heads up.