Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeNitFL
I'm sorry but this is just not a thing. You have to bet when you are against draws to deny equity. If you are able to bet when you are ahead, then fold once the draw comes in and you are behind, you will always make money from people who chase draws with incorrect odds. (Technically a naked FD is 4-1 against per street so getting them to put in a half pot bet and you don't put in anything more when the draw comes in is printing).
I'm no good but plenty of the semipros on here can confirm this.
Actually, it's very much a thing.
We flop top pair, 2nd kicker, with no clubs in our hand, OOP against 2 V's, one of whom opened UTG, and a whale in MP/LP. Unless OP omitted it, we don't have a backdoor flush draw, so other than spiking a J on a later street, our hand isn't likely to improve, short of going runner-runner to put four to Broadway on board.
When we're OOP as the pre-flop aggressor, we should be checking a lot of flops, rather than c-betting. Checking some stronger hands protects our checking range, and gives us the flexibility of check-folding, check-calling, or check-raising if an opponent bets. It also allows to see if an opponent behind us shows any interest in the pot or signs of strength after we check.
We don't have to c-bet every flop with a potential draw on board. If we do, we'll be c-betting way too much. Not c-betting when we're OOP and multi-way with a marginal-strength hand is just good pot control. If we had AA, KK, 55, AK, or A5, maybe we could go for three streets of value, but we shouldn't do that with AJ here, when we're losing to all those hands, as well as AQ and K5s, and our opponents aren't likely to fold away any hand with decent equity here.
No folds = no equity denial. If V's fold to our c-bet here, we were way ahead, unless we bet large enough to fold out hands we were behind, which is basically turning our hand into a bluff. But what better hands are folding? Maybe just K5. Or are we betting huge just to take down the pot now?
Here, hero c-bet, and they both called. UTG was the original PFR, called hero's 3B, and then called hero's turn jam on a brick, so clearly he's wasn't going to fold flop, and it doesn't appear that he was on a flush draw. The whale double-flatted pre, but folded after UTG called hero's jam. We can infer that he MIGHT have been on a flush draw when he called flop - but he over-called behind the UTG. Clearly our c-bet did nothing to get him to fold.
Our c-bet did nothing to deny equity or define our opponent's ranges at all. We'd have learned more if we checked. It also deprived us of the opportunity to put in a check-raise, which actually might have gotten one or the other to fold, winning us the pot, or getting us heads-up. All it did was bloat the pot, multi-way, when we're OOP.
So let's say the turn was indeed another club. Now what? Do we slow down and check, after we bloated the pot on the flop, allowing our opponents who do NOT have a flush to bluff us off our equity, or do we barrel into opponents who made their hand and are happy to let us keep betting, or looking forward to raising? Do we turn our hand into a bluff, to fold out AK, AQ, etc?
Say we check turn, UTG bets, and LP calls. What do we do? Fold? What if UTG bets and LP folds? We fold, or call? Say UTG checks behind, and the whale bets. Now what do we do, with UTG still in the hand?
Alternatively, if we check flop, we keep our range wide, to include flush draws, allowing us to make a delayed c-bet on the turn. We can more credibly rep a flush with this line, and protect our equity.
Or, we can go into check-call mode, in a smaller pot, when we think we're behind, but with a well-disguised bluff-catcher. If we check-call turn, our opponents won't know if we're weak or trapping.
If we were IP, sure, go ahead and c-bet when action checks to us. But we don't want to c-bet from OOP here.
Last edited by docvail; 03-12-2024 at 10:28 AM.