Been a long time since I last played, maybe it shows

Hero is utg with 360. V1 is guy in his late 50s, just bought in for 500 a few hands ago. V2 is guy in late 20s, 325 stack, a little laggy.

8 players
Hero utg w AKss, raises 15
Maybe one MP calls, BTN calls 15
V1 in SB raises to 60
V2 in BB raises to 120
Hero calls 120
Fold to V1, V1 goes all in
V2 folds


Thoughts on the call of the 120? My reasoning in spoiler below:

Raise more pre

Older guy 3betting like that is very strong. The 4better therefore should also have a pretty strong raise. I think I'd fold to the cold 4bet unless there is a light 3bet/4bet dynamic in your game.

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Also calling is pretty bad. There's not many flops that are good for you and you have no maneuverability post flop. You're putting in a third of your stack looking to hit an ace or king and even then you could be crushed

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I don't put 1/3 of my stack in the middle to fold.

Haven't read the spoilers yet, but I am guessing the old guy has a very big hand. I don't think he shoves with QQ or JJ so unfortunately, you ran into AA or KK. If you had a $500 stack, I think I could more easily find a fold. But with only $240 behind, I'd suck it up and call.

Really you made your decision when you called the $120. If you aren't prepared to GII, fold to the 4-bet.

I had forgotten there's a 4rum associated with our BS thread.

$360 is way too shallow to be calling AKs, shove or fold. 2/3 of the flops are bad for you so of course you can't put 1/3 of your stack in pf.

There should be an article on stack to pot ratio, SPR, somewhere around that would help OP.

But why is bs thread locked

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Sometimes kids get grounded, but the modern way is to take a time out.

Thx for responses. After a few minutes to reflect, I think I just got caught up in being clever, deciding v2 might have a wider range, and hoping v1 was trying to steal.

Results if anyone wants them:

Fold or shove pre....never call.

As played I fold, though.

Don't mind the $15 utg raise with Ak cuz those often times look like a pot sweetener and a ****ty lag might try 3 betting light...but you said this is an old man and those guys only 3bet QQ plus.

You're folding to the $60 or folding after putting in $120?

Yes DeadMoneyWalking that would be very helpful. In your opinion (or anyone else's), is there a article/link/place to understand SPRs more useful than Professional NL Hold'em written by Sunni Metha and (I think) Miller? That's only place where I read SPRs as a concept, but that book has "gotten me in trouble" (or I have mis-applied the concepts therein). Thanks for the feedback.

Dan Harrington has a bit about it in Harrington on Cash, but I think he assumes you already read PNL. Both books are kinda ancient now.

How are you getting in trouble? The only thing I can think of is if a lot of people saw the flop then having a low spr isn't that great. In fact having a one pair hand against five people isn't great regardless of the pot size. You have to consider how much they called pf and if they are able to mine for you your entire stack at that price.

AK is not what it used to be against 3bets/4bets, you are almost always looking at AA,KK and very rarely QQ these days.

AKsuited is a 2:1 dog against such a tight range(including all QQ combos).

Gotta fold it unless you are 1/2 in already.

So one follow up. I am on board that folding to the 120 4-bet is the right decision. I am a little less clear on why shoving is superior to calling though. Seems to me shoving likely only gets called by better hands, where calling lets me potentially play a hand in position and extract value from worse hands when I hit, and save 1/2 of my stack when I don't. I would call assuming you would also call a shove from SB, so you are willing to commit your stack, but are maybe in a better place if SB folds or calls?

This feels like this is probably a very obvious poker 101 type question, but I struggle with shoving either pushes out all worse hands and gets called by what crushes you. I guess shoving may push out another AK? Maybe QQ?

After a cold 4-bet and your scary looking flat thereof, do you think anyone will be continuing with AQ here anyway? I find it unlikely. Since you're unlikely to get action from worse anyway (which is why I'd just fold), it's better to shove than call because, as you alluded to, there's a chance someone will fold another AK or JJ/QQ. Also, since you're primarily up against PPs here, it's better to lock yourself into seeing all 5 cards in hopes of spiking an A or K, rather than putting yourself in a position to fold on a whiffed flop after putting in 1/3 of your stack.

Maybe we need a primer on fold equity Even the lowly 22 is a favorite over AK if you go from pf to showdown.