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2/5 line check with AKs 2/5 line check with AKs

08-08-2017 , 09:20 PM
2/5 game during a major tournament series, so this particular 2/5 table was playing more like a 1/2 in terms of very fit or fold, ABC type players. There were even 2 players at the table that had to be told what to do.

600 effective stacks for the players in the hand.

There is an EP limp, then a MP raise to 30. I look down at AK of hearts in the SB. I decide to flat here. The standard raise at this table has been 15-20, so the raise to 30 definitely registers in my head. Also, I'm out of position with a hand that's behind A LOT of holdings at the moment. I'd like to just see a flop and go from there. If I 3 bet then get 4 bet, it's a terrible situation for me. The EP limper also calls.

3 way (90) to a flop of....
Q 8 3............all hearts.

I check, limper checks, and the raiser bets 65. I decide to flat here as well. I am absolutely crushing anything but a set, and the J of hearts probably doesn't continue vs. a check raise. My plan is to make a move on the river, hoping he has AA or KK, and I can represent an A or K of hearts that missed if we get a clean runout. I highly doubt he would raise so large with AQ pre flop. EP limper folds.

Heads up to a turn (220) of........
3 of diamonds

I check, and he bets 100. Plan is still in tact, so I call, ready to make a move on the river.

River (420) is......
A of spades.

I check, and he bets 110. This seems SUPER value-ish, but I can't help myself. I completely spaz out, thinking only about the absolute strength of my own hand, and how I flopped the nuts, so I should win. I shove for my last 300, and he snap calls with........

QQ

So looking back, I realize this is just a cooler/cold deck, but is there any other line I could have taken where this hand ends any differently?

I guess I could have check called the turn and river once the board paired, but I'd like some thoughts on:

-3 betting pre flop
-check raising the flop
-leading any street
2/5 line check with AKs Quote
08-08-2017 , 10:17 PM
Any reads on main V?

3-betting to 100pre is obviously standard but I think flatting is fine too, esp with AKs. If I think V is loose I'd 3-bet and tight I'd be more likely to flat. In a vacuum I 3-bet.

I would usually lead flop for $75 but I like donking with monsters. Checking to check raise is fine too. A lot of Vs will put you on the NFD if you check raise. If I checked I'd check raise to 200 and shove all turns except maybe a spade. I don't like the check/call plan OOP

As played call river. Very hard for V to have a worse flush or trips. Unlikely he has AK because he wouldn't have a heart. AQ is probably the worse hand that can call your bet and it could fold sometimes. 6 combos of AQ v 8 of AA, QQ, 33 and 88. Could V show up with A3 here too?
2/5 line check with AKs Quote
08-08-2017 , 10:49 PM
The whole table was pretty straight forward. The sizing of the pre flop raise like I said really resonated with me.

Earlier I raised to 25 on the button with AA and 3-4 limpers were basically racing to fold, so I knew villain had a strong hand. I'm ranging him JJ+ and AK. I really don't think he would make it that big pre flop with AQ, so I think A3 is out of the question in this spot. That's a big reason why I decided to flat and see a flop. If I whiff altogether, I don't have to try and bluff (won't get through) a bloated pot. Had I been on the button, I think I definitely 3 bet to 100ish like you suggested.

As it was, do you think there is any line I can take where the end result is not the same?

I don't think this villain is ever folding top set, so unless I check/jam the flop, I don't see any way that we don't get it all in, UNLESS.......

I check/call the turn and river when the board pairs. It's definitely not the sexy play, and I can't run up a 2k stack just check/calling, but I would still have 50+ big blinds in a relatively soft game.
2/5 line check with AKs Quote
08-08-2017 , 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swaff
The whole table was pretty straight forward. The sizing of the pre flop raise like I said really resonated with me.

Earlier I raised to 25 on the button with AA and 3-4 limpers were basically racing to fold, so I knew villain had a strong hand. I'm ranging him JJ+ and AK. I really don't think he would make it that big pre flop with AQ, so I think A3 is out of the question in this spot. That's a big reason why I decided to flat and see a flop. If I whiff altogether, I don't have to try and bluff (won't get through) a bloated pot. Had I been on the button, I think I definitely 3 bet to 100ish like you suggested.

As it was, do you think there is any line I can take where the end result is not the same?

I don't think this villain is ever folding top set, so unless I check/jam the flop, I don't see any way that we don't get it all in, UNLESS.......

I check/call the turn and river when the board pairs. It's definitely not the sexy play, and I can't run up a 2k stack just check/calling, but I would still have 50+ big blinds in a relatively soft game.
I respectfully disagree with a lot of your thinking here:

1. I'd be more likely to 3-bet OOP and more likely to flat OTB. If we 3-bet to $100, most likely result is that we either take down $40 pre or are head's up in a $200 pot with $500 back. That's an OK result OOP. By 3-betting we can commit on any flop with an A, K, or basically any draw for us, and c-bet a committing amount on some flops we miss (maybe with running flush/straight draws). Position doesn't matter much once we 3-bet. By flatting, we're likely to go 3-way to a $90 pot with $570 behind. A lot more room for us to make a mistake, and we're not quite at a stack depth where we can easily commit with top pair multi-way. I don't hate flatting the bet if we have a read that V is strong, but that's because we don't think he's folding a lot and we think we're often flipping when called.
2. Why raise his river lead? What hands do you hope to get value from? Based on your read that V is strong pre and the fact that the A, K and Q of hearts are in your hand or on the board, he really can't have a flush, and he really can't have a 3 except maybe A3 which beats you.
3. Generally, you shouldn't be thinking about how you could've gotten away from this hand. You should be thinking about why more money didn't go in on the flop when you had the nuts on a board that a lot of people would bluff. If all the money had gotten in on the flop you'd have been a 2:1 favorite.
4. It's a cash game, so being left with 50 BBs doesn't really matter. We can reload or leave.
2/5 line check with AKs Quote
08-08-2017 , 11:48 PM
Thanks for the input.

I agree that we could have easily gotten it in on the flop.
2/5 line check with AKs Quote
08-09-2017 , 02:13 AM
If you are going to make a keen adjustment as you did pre, then you need to anchor yourself to that adjustment all the way through the hand. In other words, you have determined Preflop that AKs cannot be raised for value nor as a bluff bc of your perception of opponents range. Well, once he bet bet bets this runout, that narrow perceived range has likely tightened even further. So, go ahead and ask yourself what worse hands are betting for value on the river? You have the best two flushes, he has less KK (which are unlikely to bet turn and river let alone turn and an Ax river, the board is scary, you've called him 3 times... remember his preflop range and make a better decision next time. It's between a call and a fold, never ever a raise AP. The flop ck-c was also sound.
2/5 line check with AKs Quote
08-09-2017 , 03:11 AM
You are pretty behind by the river against a tight raising range. Villain never plays AK/AJ this way, nor 99, TT, JJ, or KK. The only likely hand we might be ahead is AQ, but with one Ace in our hand and another on the board, there are a grand total of 6 combos AQ villain could have, and further he's not triple barreling those on a monotone flop and paired turn every time so we should discount AQ even further. KQ vaguely possible. Maybe some hands like JT and T9 but that's a handful of combos at most.

So raising the river is not good. The only hands that villain plays this way that might call a raise are JT and T9 or similar. I might make a crying call because it's hard to fold the nut flush but I think we're usually behind. It just looks like QQ, 88, or possibly AA.

I don't like your line but you're coolered here pretty much regardless, although if you had 3-bet pre-flop and villain flats you could CRAI the flop. AP I probably x/r flop to 3x and shove turn.
2/5 line check with AKs Quote
08-09-2017 , 03:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanaplan
If you are going to make a keen adjustment as you did pre, then you need to anchor yourself to that adjustment all the way through the hand. In other words, you have determined Preflop that AKs cannot be raised for value nor as a bluff bc of your perception of opponents range. Well, once he bet bet bets this runout, that narrow perceived range has likely tightened even further. So, go ahead and ask yourself what worse hands are betting for value on the river? You have the best two flushes, he has less KK (which are unlikely to bet turn and river let alone turn and an Ax river, the board is scary, you've called him 3 times... remember his preflop range and make a better decision next time. It's between a call and a fold, never ever a raise AP. The flop ck-c was also sound.
Basically this, but I'm not considering a river fold for this price considering he can be value-betting AQ or any smaller flushes quite easily. It feels super nitty to not raise at any point post-flop, but we have good reasons.

The flop check/call is good because we block a lot of his continuing range (AA,KK:heart,:AK). He just folds his hands that are drawing nearly dead that may put money in later.

This hand is played in a pretty non-standard way, but it's good if you're exploiting a very tight opening range.
2/5 line check with AKs Quote
08-09-2017 , 05:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swaff
2/5 game 600 effective stacks for the players in the hand.

There is an EP limp, then a MP raise to 30. I look down at AK of hearts in the SB. I decide to flat here. The standard raise at this table has been 15-20, so the raise to 30 definitely registers in my head. Also, I'm out of position with a hand that's behind A LOT of holdings at the moment. I'd like to just see a flop and go from there. If I 3 bet then get 4 bet, it's a terrible situation for me. The EP limper also calls.
See, here is the mistake of looking at your hand: "a hand that's behind A LOT of holdings at the moment" -- You are not behind. You always at least even if not way ahead except AA/KK and even that only half of combos.

You have 120bb effective. At this depth you 3! and become committed (call a shove or shove yourself). Why care about the flop? We are not drawing with AK. I will show you why not calling his $30 pre.

66% you miss the flop and as I suspect you'll be checking and folding.
So, you lose in 100 trials 66x30=-1980

33% you flop TPTK and maybe win
So, you win in 100 trials 33x30 = 990

My friend, bad news, you are losing on average -1980+990 = -990

You can make some small adjustments for some dead little money or some another small call after you got your TP OTF but the idea is that if you call and play AK to draw OTF or else fold if you miss, you will be losing money. Goddamned losing ...man! Even when you make your TP on the flop you don't know what to do if villain give you heavy action. Sometime you'll be calling with second best and sometime you'll be folding the best.

Now, if you play it very aggressive manner preflop you can blow away the tight dudes from their QQ, JJ, TT, 99 and all their AK because few want to commit for stacks with those hands. A great achievement for us. You dominate everything else and have cut in half the AA/KK combos using your AK as two blockers.

Now, honest, I only read the first part of your post and I didn't know he flopped a Set of Queens with his pocket QQ. If you have 4! heavy as a commitment bet or shove he may have fold his hand for getting horrified to play QQ for $600. I don't know. You must know what player he is. Most TAGs nits will goddamned fold QQ to a shove preflop. To a 4! or 5! all QQ, 88 and 33 muck. This for sure all 88 and 33 hit the muck. Think what you would have done if the flop would have been Q,A,3 rainbow, you flopped TPTK and lose because you don't know where you are. WA or WB? Never know. Never know with one pair hands. Never know..., Calling is never good with AK.

GL and good flops

Last edited by outdonked; 08-09-2017 at 05:29 AM.
2/5 line check with AKs Quote
08-09-2017 , 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swaff
Thanks for the input.

I agree that we could have easily gotten it in on the flop.
Best way to play it. Overjam here is fine. You were not going to get paid off on so many cards. If a heart turns it kills the action. We block every value combo that pays so we werent gaining much by just calling flop.

You only need the Ah to jam profitably and possibly unexploitably at this depth
2/5 line check with AKs Quote
08-09-2017 , 12:31 PM
Thanks again for all the input.

This is the first hand I have ever posted on here.
2/5 line check with AKs Quote
08-09-2017 , 12:45 PM
This hand was played very well op.

I think you can hero flat the river (hero flat bc its close between a flat and a stuff in live poker). The A is particularly bad, bc it gives AA a boat and blocks KK from betting. So when we stuff we are targeting exactly AQ/JhTh

That said, I'd rather see people value owning themselves than missing value.

Not 3betting pre is fine and check raising the flop is bad.
2/5 line check with AKs Quote

      
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