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2/5 KQs flush draw facing flop raise in 3bet pot 2/5 KQs flush draw facing flop raise in 3bet pot

07-08-2019 , 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr
1) How often do you think he is taking this line as a bluff/spazzing/turning random SDV into a bluff and how frequently relative to just the nuts/flush/possible spazzed straight?

Yeah sure AAJ doesn't know for certain whether he was bluffing or not. But if you had to bet 50 million dollars whether he was bluffing or not, everyone would snap pick not bluffing faster than lightning.

2) Yes, we can be drawing thin in this spot but that doesn't matter. What matters is range vs range. Just because we are drawing thin vs a lot of hands doesn't mean the stack-off is -EV.
Thanks as always for your excellent comments.

1) In the HH, the bluff/non-bluff isn't as important as the fact that V was willing to call a big raise with (ostensibly) just a draw. He wasn't getting pot odds in all likelihood to bink the turn (which apparently he did). Sorry if I focused excessively on the "bluff" instead of highlighting the more important issue of V's "aggression factor".

2)I'm not opposed to stacking off here, but I prefer to do it ott. So I'd rather take a free card while retaining the option to delay c-bet/jam this turn while I'm still uncapped. How would you play red Aces here?
2/5 KQs flush draw facing flop raise in 3bet pot Quote
07-08-2019 , 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AAJTo
The fact that Vs range is wider in this spot actually helps us even more because even though he can have every AXd here the amount of garbage added in far outweighs that small % of hands and massively increases our fold equity. This is talking about before we get x/r of course. If V had J9o here and called flop and folded to a turn jam when the 2 hits you would have never saw this posted on 2p2. If you 3b with this hand and hit a flop like this and your first instinct is to check you are making a severe mistake.
I think we all agree that GTO says we should bet this flop with the great majority of our range. My point was to inquire whether a deviation from standard GTO is warranted in particular Villain's case, based on the prior HH and the lingering faint possibility that V pushed H off a winning hand and/or raised him pretty light.

I don't think there's that much room between our points of view here.
2/5 KQs flush draw facing flop raise in 3bet pot Quote
07-08-2019 , 03:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
After 3betting pre-flop, which is fine with me, I'm definitely betting this flop. And as played, I am fine gii with two overs and the second nut flush draw. If he has a set or AdXd, so be it. We have outs against both.
Best part about this thread is if V called the 75 with a AdXd and we shove turn we get the hands that have us "drawing dead" to fold. I guess the popular advice here would be just to check again to GTOrealize our equity or some sht.

Now that I think about it, H should have potted flop so we could be closer to a psb turn jam. Watch in horror as this V folds 85% on the turn and gifts us another $120.

Last edited by AAJTo; 07-08-2019 at 03:17 PM.
2/5 KQs flush draw facing flop raise in 3bet pot Quote
07-08-2019 , 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanishmoon
I think we all agree that GTO says we should bet this flop with the great majority of our range. My point was to inquire whether a deviation from standard GTO is warranted in particular Villain's case, based on the prior HH and the lingering faint possibility that V pushed H off a winning hand and/or raised him pretty light.

I don't think there's that much room between our points of view here.
I am going to be blunt and its not to because I am being rude or picking on you and if you take what I am about to say very seriously it will help you in the long run. The way you're talking about poker in this thread is at a very flawed amateur level. You come off as someone who is trying really hard to get better at poker but are taking in too much information too quickly from too complex of sources. Its like trying to be a rocket scientist while skipping university. Forget about GTO and use flopzilla for an hour. If you think you need to worry about RIO in this hand or think in the example hand given that V is bluffing you really need to go back to the basics.
2/5 KQs flush draw facing flop raise in 3bet pot Quote
07-08-2019 , 03:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AAJTo
I am going to be blunt and its not to because I am being rude or picking on you and if you take what I am about to say very seriously it will help you in the long run. The way you're talking about poker in this thread is at a very flawed amateur level. You come off as someone who is trying really hard to get better at poker but are taking in too much information too quickly from too complex of sources. Its like trying to be a rocket scientist while skipping university. Forget about GTO and use flopzilla for an hour. If you think you need to worry about RIO in this hand or think in the example hand given that V is bluffing you really need to go back to the basics.
Thanks for your concern and advice. To repeat what I said to Minatorr above, I'm not sure the V was bluffing. But he certainly showed aggression in that hand.

Let's do a thought experiment. Regardless of the outcome of this hand, would you adjust your style next time you played this V? If so, how? Thanks again for your help.
2/5 KQs flush draw facing flop raise in 3bet pot Quote
07-08-2019 , 06:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanishmoon
Thanks as always for your excellent comments.

1) In the HH, the bluff/non-bluff isn't as important as the fact that V was willing to call a big raise with (ostensibly) just a draw. He wasn't getting pot odds in all likelihood to bink the turn (which apparently he did). Sorry if I focused excessively on the "bluff" instead of highlighting the more important issue of V's "aggression factor".

2)I'm not opposed to stacking off here, but I prefer to do it ott. So I'd rather take a free card while retaining the option to delay c-bet/jam this turn while I'm still uncapped. How would you play red Aces here?
Well, doesnt 1) characterize the vast majority of live players who just love to cawl?

2) Overpairs on this board are mixes for me but im betting with the diamonds more often. This board we should be checking a ton. If i recall correctly PIO checks 80%+ of range here
2/5 KQs flush draw facing flop raise in 3bet pot Quote
07-08-2019 , 07:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
Post this hand as a PAHWM (without showing the flop check raise) and a lot more people will want to bet the flop.
The irony of this post is astounding given your two classic rebuttals to anyone challenging you are 1) that you take "unorthodox lines," and 2) that there are "multiple ways to play hands correctly" which Minatorr then has to correct you every time that playing a hand profitably doesn't mean it was played correctly, as the correct line is the line with the highest EV.
2/5 KQs flush draw facing flop raise in 3bet pot Quote
07-08-2019 , 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
The irony of this post is astounding given your two classic rebuttals to anyone challenging you are 1) that you take "unorthodox lines," and 2) that there are "multiple ways to play hands correctly" which Minatorr then has to correct you every time that playing a hand profitably doesn't mean it was played correctly, as the correct line is the line with the highest EV.
There are multiple +EV ways to play most hands. We cant know which +EV line is best without knowing villains exact hand. Whoever is better at reading people, narrowing their ranges, and taking advantage of that information will do the best long term. End of story.
2/5 KQs flush draw facing flop raise in 3bet pot Quote
07-08-2019 , 11:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
There are multiple +EV ways to play most hands. We cant know which +EV line is best without knowing villains exact hand. Whoever is better at reading people, narrowing their ranges, and taking advantage of that information will do the best long term. End of story.
That's you right?
2/5 KQs flush draw facing flop raise in 3bet pot Quote
07-08-2019 , 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanaplan
That's you right?
Of course it is
2/5 KQs flush draw facing flop raise in 3bet pot Quote

      
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